Transcript:
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: What’s up?
[00:00:28] Speaker A: In this episode, we will be talking about the connection between Mormon and Joseph Smith. Then we will explore the takeaways from the time between Joseph’s first and second visions. And we will wrap up talking about the significance of Elijah coming before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
So let’s get rolling.
Joseph Smith. It is interesting that the author of the Book of Mormon, I mean, it is named after him. Mormon and Joseph Smith’s life have so much in common. And as I look at these two prophets, I can’t help but think of like a book. When you’re reading a book and you kind of leave off and set it down for a while and you go back to read the book and you go to where you think you left off and you start reading and you might forget, like, what was it talking about? Or where were we going with this? And you have to almost kind of go back and read the last page again and then you get your flow and you start moving back into the new content. It’s almost like that’s what Joseph Smith is for the Book of Mormon, because when you look at his life, it’s like a repeat of Mormon’s life. Does that make sense?
[00:01:31] Speaker B: A little bit.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
Let’s see if we can dive into some of the scriptures a little bit and draw that comparison out.
So in Mormon 1. 5, Mormon tells us, kind of on a side note, by the way, my dad’s name was Mormon too. And it doesn’t seem like it’s important or critical to the setting or anything that’s going on. We don’t know anything about his dad, any of the stories there. And we got to remember that he’s engraving these things on plates, yet he makes important note saying, hey, I was also named after my dad. Something that Joseph Smith has in common, obviously, his dad being named Joseph Smith as well afterwards Mormon when he was young, about 11 years old, he’s carried to the land southward. He’s carried to Zarahembla, which is described as the land southward. Joseph Smith is also, at the age of 11 years old, relocated to Palmyra after his farm didn’t do so well. And this was a few years after he had the crippling leg surgery where he wasn’t well enough to Walk on his own power. He had to kind of ride in the wagon or be carried or limp around. Just as Mormon references, that he was carried into a land southward as well, and Palmyra was south from where the Smiths were located.
Both men have been described as being large of stature. Joseph Smith was described as being large, standing a little over 6ft high, about 200, 210 pounds.
Mormon was described as a large man. He commanded armies at an early age. Joseph Smith was head of the Mormon Battalion and commanded armies as well. And Mormon describes a war that takes place on the waters between the Nephites and the Lamanites that takes place on the seashore next to the waters. And a little bit of history at the same time. Joseph Smith, growing up, we had a little war of the War of 1812.
And what a lot of people might not realize, you know the story of the national Anthem with Francis Scott Key.
Yeah.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Where they. That was at a fort, not Sumner. What fort was it at Fort Shoot.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: I’m not sure.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: All right, well, is it a fort? It was definitely a fort in Baltimore, though, right?
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Okay. I at least knew the city it was in.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And he’s out of the. You know, he’s out in the waters watching the fort and watching the flag that’s up there at the fort. Right. And a lot of people place this action in the Revolutionary War, but this was going on right here. This is a war that’s happening by the seashore at the time of Joseph Smith. So you’ve got kind of these parallel stories, these parallel circumstances for these two guys.
Mormon, when he was 15 years old, was visited by the Lord. And Joseph Smith tells us in his 15th year, he was also visited of the Lord. And some accounts we have when he was 14 and some accounts of the first vision we have when he’s 16. So, I mean, if you average it out around the same time, he’s being visited of the Lord in person at the same time. That Mormon was Fort McHenry. Thank you.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: I’m sorry. I know I just totally ignored everything you just said, and I know it was so good, but I couldn’t let that go. War of 1812, you’re right. It was not the Revolutionary War.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: And it was Battle of Baltimore. So points for me on that.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Definitely points for you. I’m glad you found that. That would have driven me nuts, too.
Internet. The Internet does wonders.
So you’ve got this. You had the wars. You’ve got both of them seeing the Lord at the age of 15 or right around the age of 15. Now, when Mormon’s commanded to go and get the records, you’ll notice that he’s actually commanded to leave some of the records alone, that he can’t have them, he can’t translate them, he can’t read them. And it’s very similar to Joseph Smith who gets the plates. And there’s a third of the plates that he can access, but two thirds of it is sealed. Right. So he can’t open them up. So there’s similarities in that. Also, even though he’s told about the plates at a very young age, guess how old Mormon was when he goes and gets the plates. I don’t know, 24. 24 years old. Which is the same year. Yeah. Same age as Joseph Smith. Can’t say the same year, obviously, we’re thousands of years apart, but the same age Joseph Smith was when Joseph Smith finally got the records as well.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: And people think that Mormons pray to Mormon, that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either pray to Mormon or Joseph Smith. So they have that in common, too.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Am I stepping outside the box or do we?
[00:05:48] Speaker A: No, you are right on track. You are right on track. In fact, they used to have, at the Salt Lake Temple, used to have a statue of Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith, and they took them down off the temple because they were worried about people thinking that we were worshiping Joseph Smith. And just like you have the church called Mormons, and ultimately at the end, both of them were killed by their enemies. So I think that’s a really cool link or a bridge. You’ve got Mormon leaving off the records, giving it to his son Moroni, and Moroni bringing it to Joseph Smith. And you’ve got Joseph Smith life, almost a recap of Mormon’s life or a redo. Just kind of bridging this ancient world into this modern world, translating the records and bringing it to the Latter Day Saints, which I think is kind of a cool connection.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: It’s very cool.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Next, as we were reading through the Joseph Smith history, something I found fascinating is when Joseph Smith starts talking about his follies. You know, he says when he had first prayed, he had prayed to figure out his standing before the Lord. And the Lord says, you know, your sins are forgiven, you’re good. And he says here that his lack of church attendance, he’s almost kind of blaming that for his slippery path to his follies. It’s kind of an interesting statement because he’s saying, I was forbidden to join any Church. So, you know, not going to church, I naturally just started doing things that I probably shouldn’t have. And by admitting these things, no one needs to accuse me of anything too grievous here. But it’s kind of funny that association that he makes with his follies and the things that he’s doing, he’s almost attributing to, hey, I’ve been inactive for a while and you can’t blame me for being inactive. There’s no church that I can actually go to. But because I’ve been inactive a little bit, I’m a little bit nervous about how I’m sitting here. And that’s what drives his second vision.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Was Mormon inactive though for a thousand.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Years at least on the earth, right. Who knows what he’s doing on the other side?
So, and this is, you know, when he goes to pray, wanting to know how his standing is before God, he is fully expecting a vision. And it’s very different from the first vision. The first vision we’re talking about like three or four years of preparation and studying and searching and now all of a sudden he says, you know what, I’ve done this before, I knelt down and prayed fully expecting to have a vision that night. And he did. And that’s when Moroni sees him. But what I find super fascinating about this is that Joseph Smith is going to be martyred at a young age, right? He’s got a huge work to do. He’s got the church to restore the priesthood, to bring back all of the revelations, the organization, everything that he needs to do and he’s not going to have a full lifetime to do it. And you can almost see like stress or worry on the Lord’s part if someone’s like, hey, aren’t you going to like that 14 year old boy you plan on calling? Like he hasn’t really been leaning on you too much here or looking for direction. At what point are you going to step in and try to set this boy on the right path and get the ball moving? Like you’re going to run out of time if you just let him waste his time, right? But that’s not how God’s playing it. God trusts Joseph Smith to ultimately come to God.
You don’t see God looking at the situation and stressing out and saying, hey, this guy better shape up, I better reach out to him, I better slap him upside the head, I better do something because we’re going to run out of time. No, there’s no worry, there’s no stress, there’s Patience, there’s kindness. I’m going to let this boy learn. I’m going to let him figure life out and get to a point in his life where he’s ready to do it, and he comes to me ready to do it.
And that’s one of the coolest things I get out of this story, this experience is that God trusts us.
And it reminds me of the story of Abraham, if I can digress just for a minute. When Abraham goes to make a sacrifice, normally what they do is they cut the animals in half, separate them, one on each side, and then you walk between the pieces of the animal, saying, may I be destroyed and cut apart like these animals. If I don’t live up to this covenant, it’s always the weaker party that’s forced to walk between the animals, covenanting to the greater party. You’d see this in wars and all sorts of things, saying, I’m willing to subject myself to these terms if I don’t live up to it. But the cool thing in Abraham’s case is when he separates these animal parts and he is just sitting there all day, keeping the flies away, just whatever, waiting on the Lord. And then the Lord himself walks through this like he’s subjecting himself to these terms, not Abraham. He’s saying, I’m trusting you, Abraham. The faith that God places in us is interesting.
And that’s kind of my takeaway when I read this story is God knows that.
I guess he knows who he’s calling. And he’s willing to help us make, you know, help us learn, but allow us to make mistakes and teach us when we do make those mistakes. And he’s not just going to sit there and force us to do things or shove things down our throat. I guess the whole purpose of the plan in the beginning was agency. But he’s allowing Joseph Smith to mature to the point where Joseph Smith comes to God saying, okay, Lord, I’m ready. What’s next?
The last really point of emphasis as I look at this lesson was Elijah. Because this is a scripture I think is extremely significant because we don’t just see it in Malachi chapter three, or chapter four, excuse me, when he says that the Lord will send Elijah before the great and terrible day to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children, right? But when Christ comes here into America, he says, you know, there’s a prophet that lived on the other side of the continent, and he spoke these words that I gave him that you don’t have in your records. I Want you guys to write this down. So we don’t just have it in the Bible, but we have it in the Book of Mormon. And then with the opening of this dispensation, that’s the message that Moroni brings to Joseph Smith in his room is this message about Elijah turning the hearts of the fathers to the children to the fathers, and the fathers to the children. And not only does he give it to him, and it’s recorded in Joseph Smith history, but now we also have it. Doctrine Covenants, Section 2. And it’s repeated again in Doctrine Covenants, Section 128. And it’s repeated throughout the New Testament, or, excuse me, the. The Restored Scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s a message that.
And the words change here and there, little subtle differences, but something that’s just. It’s just kind of shouting out like this is important.
It’s not just said once or twice or three times, but it’s said multiple times throughout all the different volumes of Scripture. And anytime I see something like that, that is the same message consistently, that’s something I want to kind of stop and pay attention to.
And as I think about this, I can’t help but think of the Passover, because this is the oldest tradition in the world today, the oldest religious festival, the oldest celebration. Passover, it’s 4,000 years old. And every year in Passover, they set a place for Elijah, waiting for him to come back, right? So they have this empty place setting, and they hold the spot because they believe that Elijah will come at the end as the precursor to the coming of the Messiah. And the most fascinating thing we’ll see this later on through the year in Doctrine and Covenants is that on Passover, Elijah came to the Kirtland Temple and returned that sealing power to Joseph Smith to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. And you think it was that same Passover night that he came.
And here you have all these people, millions of people throughout the world, waiting for him. And he came, but he didn’t come to them. And that’s where I find it interesting, because in the New Testament, they make a point of it. Christ says, how many starving widows were there in Israel? But Elijah came to none of them. Instead, he went to the Tishbite. He went to the. To the outsider.
And so I look at that as starving widows, starving in the terms of apostasy. They’re waiting for the Messiah. They’re waiting for that word. They’re waiting for The Gospel. And they’re widows. And the reason why they’re widows is because their husband has left them. Their husband’s died. Right, this sense, the Lord is the husband, he’s the groom, this church is a widow and that he has died. They killed him. And here they are, starving, waiting for the Messiah. Yet to none of them did Elijah come in the last days. But he came to this Gentile, he came to Joseph Smith, this no one. And he brought back the sealing power and restored here on earth all of these things, precursor to the coming of Jesus Christ when he comes again.
Powerful message, but that’s.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Do you wait before you wrap this up, though, other than the obvious kind of the surface level idea of the hearts of the children turn to their fathers and the fathers of the children, I guess. And maybe you. I mean, I don’t mean to put you on the spot or anything. I kind of understand the idea of the hearts of the children to their fathers. I’ve always kind of. I understand the symbolism of, you know, and we’ve always taught, like, oh, yeah, it’s like genealogy work or, you know, like trying to, you know, add, you know, respect to the names of your forefathers, the people that kind of came before you, whether they be, you know, pioneers or not or. You know what I mean?
I guess I’ve always kind of wondered what the symbolism is. Like, why is it the fathers to the children too? You know what I mean? Like, why isn’t it just the hearts of the children to their fathers?
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Oh, that’s an excellent question, and I’m glad you asked it to go there. I’d like to go to Second Nephi, and this is kind of my interpretation on this. This is second Nephi, chapter 32, and he says, and now behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that you ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning what you should do after you have entered in. By the way, but behold, why do you ponder these things in your hearts? Do you not remember that I said unto you that you have received the Holy Ghost, that you could speak with the tongue of angels? And now how could you speak with the tongue of angels, save it were by the Holy Ghost? Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore they speak the words of Christ?
I think as we’re talking about angels speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. I think oftentimes when we receive promptings from the Holy Ghost or feelings from the Holy Ghost, whether it’s the power of the Holy Ghost or a specific Holy Ghost that’s speaking to Us or whether it’s angels, those who are sent to watch after us, to help us, to care for us. Who are our fathers on the other side that are operating through the direction of the Holy Ghost to guide and inspire us.
That is something that I have wondered about because not only are our hearts turning to them as we try to remember them and as we try to do ordinances for them, but I think oftentimes a lot of our passed away ones, our forefathers on the other side of the veil are focused on our success and how they can help us and give us inspiration and guidance through the power of the Holy Ghost as they try to lead and direct us.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: That’s good. It’s kind of. While you were saying that, it kind of made me think too, maybe even, even in this life too. You know what I mean? Like, maybe, you know, a lot of times when, when, you know, missionaries are speaking to adults, a lot of their, you know, when people do have children or grandchildren, you know, so much it is interesting like the, the way that it can change just a person’s way of thinking or their, their priorities and their focus. And so much of that becomes like, well, what’s the, what is the best. What, what can I do to better the lives of my kids? And the, the message of the gospel that like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you can be with them forever even after this life is, is something, you know, that’s kind of a pretty strong even in this life. To your point that where like a father or a parent to their child can go, like, oh, this speaks to me because I want the best for you too, you know, I want you to have direction, you know, and if having the gospel in your life will help with that, then awesome.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: I love what you said there. Because as we shift the focus not even just from our fathers looking down to us, but our perspective, not just looking back to our ancestors, but looking down to the generations that have come from us. How are the decisions that I make today going to affect my children? How are they going to remember me? And what kind of positive impact can I have on them to try to keep?
[00:18:50] Speaker B: What name am I leaving for them to either have pride in or to have shame in? I guess too.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Right, right.
And there’s no greater legacy that you can leave behind than to turn them to Christ or bring them to Christ. Right. I mean, the greatest gift you can give them is, is to highlight the way where they can follow the Savior. And being able to have that truth restored gives fathers a powerful tool. Not, not just to teach their children, guide their children and teach them how to, you know, that there is hope that they can repent, but also to to look to save their their past ones, do ordinance works for them and just try to seal and bring everyone together.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in. In next week’s episode, we’re going to be talking about the works of God and how his plans can’t be frustrated. And specifically, we’re dealing with the 116 pages that time of Joseph Smith’s life and kind of the revelations that were received then. And moving past that point until next week. We’ll see you then.
See yah.
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