Transcript:
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: What is up?
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Hey. In this episode we are going to take a look at the Lord’s revelation to his three witnesses that he used to testify to the gold plates. The first, section 18 is addressed to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And finally section 19 is addressed to Martin Harris.
I couldn’t help but think as I was looking at this message here, first to the the two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, they have kind of a connection. When we talked about this a little bit earlier when the Lord called them to testify to the plates and the things that Joseph Smith had seen, all three of them were there originally, but Martin Harris had a hard time and felt like he needed to repent and that his shortcomings was what was keeping them from seeing the vision that they needed to see. So he withdrew. So you have this grouping where section 18 is addressed to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and then 19 is addressed separately to Martin Harris. And I couldn’t help but look at this and kind of see, or at least have it remind me of when Alma’s talking to his three kids and he talks to Helaman and Shiblon at first, and then he addresses Corianthon later and has kind of this deeper dive into the atonement to what it means and gives his son kind of a little bit more help to try to prepare him and help him to correct his path a little bit more per se.
So let’s look at 18 first. And I like how the Lord starts this off. He says, because you desired to know of me, I give you these words.
And as we’ve seen throughout Doctrine and Covenants, it’s not that the Lord just rains knowledge upon his saints without them even wanting it or showing interest. It’s because they’re interested first. That whole asking you shall receive you. You first have to show some sort of desire, some sort of interest in becoming to the Lord and wondering and asking, and then you receive the knowledge. So you look at these guys and say, why is it that Joseph Smith received so much light and so much inspiration? Or why do people receive revelations? Or why does it seem like some people understand things better? Well, if you are sitting around waiting for the Lord to rain this knowledge upon your head, that might Be your problem. We’ve got to stop looking at it as, has the Lord chosen me? Is the Lord going to show this to me? And more, am I interested in what the Lord’s works are? What kind of questions do I have when I read the Scriptures? What does it do? Because the thing about the Scriptures is it’s not the end all, be all. It’s not the conversation ender, it’s the conversation starter. When we open up the Scriptures and we start to look at them, we should have questions. We should look at it and say, wait a second, what is this really telling me? And as that starts to pique our interest and we start to have those desires and start to wonder and start to be a little bit curious, that curiosity, that desire, is what rewards us, or the Lord rewards it with him pouring that knowledge upon us or saying, you know, because you desired this of me, that’s why I’m going to give it to youo.
He’s not usually giving us things that we didn’t ask for in the first place.
And I guess you kind of get the caveat right. Be careful what you ask for.
But going on, he does say, I’ve manifested unto you in many instances the truthfulness of the things which you have written. Therefore you know that they are true, rely on them so that you can conquer hell. And this is something that shows up in primary, in Sunday School, we call it the Sunday School answers. Oh, just read your Scriptures, read your Scriptures, read your scriptures. But here the Lord is giving them this advice and telling them, if you want to conquer hell, and believe me, hell is going to combine against you. And you are addressing the three witnesses who struggled with remaining faithful to the revelations that the Lord had given them, that struggled with staying active in the church, and the Lord’s telling them, seeing the path that they are going to trod, and says, if you want to conquer Hell, be faithful to the things which I have given you. Not just be faithful, rely on them.
And it reminds me of the iron rod in Lehi’s vision. He says, when Laman and Lemuel ask Nephi what is the meaning of the iron rod, he says, the iron rod is the word of God, and that whosoever holds on to it steadfastly will overcome the fiery darts and temptations of the adversary that try to lead them away. As simple as it sounds, and maybe that’s why it is such a primary answer, such a Sunday school thing is because it is really at the core of things. It really is the heart of what we should be doing or how we should be preparing ourselves to come out conqueror.
So it is important, there is a reason why it is the primary Sunday school go to answer.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: But you forgot pray and go to church.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Well, pray is actually.
Pray is actually going to show up in Doctrine and covenant section 20. When the Lord says, and we’ve seen it, we’ve seen it here and there. When the Lord says, pray always that you come off conquer that you can overcome.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: But where does it say go to church?
Gotcha.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: You got me. You got me there.
Yeah. And as simple as these things seem, I don’t know, it’s the fundamentals. Anyone who’s played any sports or tried to learn any instrument or tried to do anything very successful in life, whether it be business or whatever it is, a lot of times it goes back to those fundamentals. What can you do to work on those fundamentals? And these are those.
Alright. And there’s a little line here that I found interesting. It says that you’re called with the same calling as Paul.
And so you look at it, what was Paul’s calling? And Paul, he was struck with the blindness. He’s told to report to the leadership of the church there. And he’s blessed. He’s called to serve his mission. And ultimately we understand Paul becomes an apostle. So you say, okay, is the calling of these guys the calling of an apostle? But we need to understand that this revelation was given in 1829. At this point, there is no church, there is no quorum of the twelve apostles. In fact, later on in this section, the direction is going to be given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer to find the twelve apostles and to call them to organize that quorum. So it doesn’t exist yet. So when we talk about the calling of Paul, it’s not a calling as an apostle, even though Oliver Cowdery is ordained as an apostle. It’s a calling to go out and to preach.
And it is interesting, 1830, one of the very first missions that they are called to serve. Oliver Cowdery opens the mission and heads it up. It is not a mission to England. It is not a mission in the United States to go and preach to the Gentiles, if you will. It is a mission to the Native Americans to try to convert the original inhabitants of the earth.
The original inhabitants of the earth, the original inhabitants here of the United States, they go to the Native Americans. And it’s a fulfillment of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 3. And we kind of glanced over this when we went over section three in our podcast, but it was interesting enough. I did want to kind of highlight it. The Lord says in verse 16, nevertheless, my work shall go forth. For inasmuch as the knowledge of the Savior has come unto the world through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of the Savior come unto my people and to the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites through the testimony of their fathers. Wait a second.
The names that he’s reading off here. The Nephites, the Jacobites, the Josephites, the Zoramites. I thought those were the people that were extinct at the end of the Book of Mormon, the ones that got wiped off the face of the earth. And he goes on in 18. And this testimony shall come unto the knowledge of the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren, the Nephites, even though he has destroyed them, though there is still a remnant of these people, the Nephites, the Jacobites, the Josephites here left on the land, and they believed that by going to the Native Americans at the time, they felt they had an early claim to see these records which they believed they had created and wanted to go and take the gospel to the Lamanites, to the Nephites and start the work right off early with trying to convert the Native Americans.
All right, Even though they’re called to this calling of Paul and they’re also called to find the 12 apostles.
It’s something that they fasted and prayed over names and looked for and tried to find who these 12 apostles would be for six years and couldn’t find the time wasn’t right. They had a hard time fulfilling this. So the revelation is given 1829, but it is not until 1836 that all of a sudden Joseph Smith receives a revelation and says, the time is right. Call a conference next week. We are going to call these apostles.
It is interesting. Sometimes the Lord tells us to do something and we expect to have it accomplished right away. The Lord wants me to do this. I am going to go do it right now. And we go and we work on it and we’re doing everything we can, and we might feel like we’re failing or something’s not right because it’s just not happening. And ask ourselves the question, am I doing it right? What am I missing? How come I can’t get this accomplished?
Look at the mission of Nephi, going back to get those plates, and when he goes back there, they’re turned away time and time again until it finally happens. But just because the Lord has asked us to do something doesn’t mean that he expects it to be fulfilled right away. He just expects us to begin right away and to be diligent and see it through until it reaches finality and when the time is right. That’s the funny thing about the Lord. We might be sitting there thinking this will never happen, wondering when it’s going to happen, and then all of a sudden, when the time is right, you blink your eyes and it’s already happened. And you weren’t even expecting it. You were wondering, okay, when is this going to be fulfilled? When is this going to be? And then all of a sudden, it’s done.
It’s kind of funny how the Lord works like that.
And when they called these 12 apostles, Oliver Cowdery actually addresses the quorum of the 12 that he’s addressed, that they’ve called. And when he speaks to them, he tells them that they are special witnesses.
And he says, it is necessary that you have seen the face of God. Therefore, never cease striving until you see the face of God. These are special witnesses called to testify that Jesus Christ has been resurrected, that he lives, that this is his church.
And Oliver Cowdery is trying to prepare him for that. And his role, even though he wasn’t called as one of these first 12 apostles, he was an apostle, but he’s almost a forerunner, a precursor. Him and the three witnesses are almost taking a role like a presidency that is moving the ball and calling this next quorum. They’re almost presiding over them in a way, and he’s giving them counsel, trying to line them up and get them ready to go.
All right. The Lord uses a name here in Doctrine and covenants, section 18, in the Revelation to Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, excuse me, David Whitmer. He calls himself Alpha and Omega. It’s something that we’ve seen in the New Testament. It’s something we’ve seen here and there in the Scriptures.
We know it comes from the Greek Alphabet, Alpha being the first letter, omega being the last one. A little bit of trivia for you.
In English. We call them the ABCs or the Alphabet. Do you know where the word Alphabet comes from?
Sorry, Nate, I throw you on the spot here.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: I mean, I know that alpha is A and beta is B. And so I’m assuming that it’s just Alphabet that’s it.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: That’s it. Alphabet.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: What’s up?
[00:13:18] Speaker A: There he is. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
Yeah. And the Greek actually takes it even further back. You look at the Hebrew and the Semitic language. Aleph was the first letter. Beit was the second letter. Aleph, bet or alpha, Beta or Alphabet. Alphabet is another way of saying ABCs. It’s just ABs in the ancient language.
So going to this Greek language. Why does the Lord refer to Himself as A and Z?
And we know he was A because he was there at the creation. He was there at the beginning.
He laid the foundations of the earth. He created the earth, he created man. He had a very significant role in the beginning to play. So he is Alpha. He is the beginning. Without him, there was no life on earth. There was no start. And he is the end, Omega. At the very end of times, he is going to come down to the earth. There is going to be your final battle, if you will. The good versus evil, the judgment of Christ, the rolling things up, the accountability. He is finality. He is at the end.
So he is Alpha and Omega. But the cool thing is the role that he played on earth isn’t just at the beginning, isn’t just at the end, but he came at the meridian of times. So, I mean, what is the letter in the middle of the Alphabet? He’s the L or the M.
And it’s not just that he’s the L or the M. You look in the Old Testament and he is the captain of the armies. He goes in front of Israel. He is the pillar of fire at night in the column of smoke that led Israel out of bondage. He is the one that speaks to his prophets. He is the one that is preparing the way for him to come by calling a prophet in the last days. The thing is, he is not just the first letter. He is not just the last letter. He is throughout the entire Alphabet.
And there’s been talk about God and the idea that he wound up the watch and is just letting it click that God at one point set everything all up and organized it and he is done. Now the heavens are closed and he’s just going to let things run. And now it’s our turn. But that’s not the case. God has always been involved, is always involved. We still pray to Him. The heavens are open. And he is saying he is not just A and Z. He is throughout A through Z. He is interwoven into everything. He is very involved.
We have talked about the atonement being this idea of him giving us new life or an opportunity to be born. We are his children and as his children he cares about us. He is very involved in our life and our affairs. So when he says that he is the Alphabet A through Z. I don’t look at it as just A and Z and the book ends the beginning and the end. I look at it the beginning through the end. He is through everything.
He also talks about as we start looking into Doctrine and covenants, section 19 he says endless punishment. And he gives us a new take on this.
Throughout Scriptures we read about hell, eternal damnation. And this is something that has been trumped up and played very heavy. You look at the early Christian church and they put gargoyles all over the outside of the cathedrals and they would try to make it look ghoulish and hellish to show the separation between hell on the outside of the church and what faced out versus heaven and peace on the inside. The paintings of God, divinity, everything on the inside that’s supposed to create this, this heavenly divine where you have hell on the outside. And they would talk about how bad hell is and this lake of fire and brimstone and this eternal damnation. But here we get kind of a softer tone where God’s saying it’s not just endless, but endless is my name and it’s the punishment that I assign to men for not listening. Therefore it’s endless punishment as in it’s my punishment. And this idea that yeah, it’s endless and that God is endless. And so God will always have the ability to punish. It’s not like he’s going away anytime soon. He like he said, I am the beginning, I am the end, I am throughout everything. You can’t just wait till God dies and escape his punishment. Because God is endless, his punishment is endless. And his word being like the two edged sword is if you live by it, it’s going to liberate you. He suffered so that you wouldn’t have to. You’re going to be free. If not, then you’re going to be suffering even as he did. A punishment. That’s his punishment. It’s eternal just as he is in nature. But that’s not to say that you’re going to be stuck there forever. I think this is a very revolutionary idea at this time. When you look at the shaking of, of Christianity from this unknowable God, from this eternal damnation to whoever doesn’t get baptized is going to be lost forever to this generous God who says, whoa, whoa, whoa, endless punishment is endless because I’m endless. Let’s clear up a few things. Here’s how I am. And just really getting us to know God in a different light from how maybe we understood him before a lot of this came.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: It’s interesting because when you do look back through all those old pictures and stuff like that and realize nobody had any idea what they were actually afraid of, does that make sense? Like everybody was afraid of going to hell and nobody knew what that actually even meant. Right. Yeah, they would use the fire and the brimstone. But it’s funny because like every interpretation through Catholicism and you know, the very various Protestant, you know, and reformed parts of the, the church, it’s like they all kind of depicted it differently because nobody had any idea what they were actually afraid of other than apparently fire and brimstone and weird demon looking guys. But even then it’s just like, where did they even get the ideas of all this imagery from this and stuff like that? It’s just funny because like, we growing up kind of knowing the plan of salvation or whatever, have always had kind of a different take on it. But sometimes when you look through this stuff, you’re like, man, that would have been just stressful. Just like, just stressful. Being scared of just burning forever and not even really knowing exactly what to do to qualify one way or the other. It’s just interesting. I mean, it’s obviously, it’s an appealing thing having some sort of clarity on all of this.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like the gospel was not so much a message of hope back then as much as what can we do to scare people into the church?
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Oh yeah, of course.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: And how, you know, how do we open their eyes to the gravity of the situation?
Let’s see how bad we can shock them, like you say, without even really knowing what that looked like. How do we describe something that we don’t even understand ourselves?
And I think Dante probably comes closest when he, you know, his, his trip to Inferno and the different layers of hell and you get all this imaginative. Yeah, Creativity. But yeah, you’re right.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: And the thing is, it’s kind of genius though, because again, like, especially back in the early days of, you know, like the Catholic Church or whatever, it’s like the religious leaders needed to keep some sort of like political control on things and. You know what I mean? It’s like the religious part of daily life was such a control mechanism and you know what I mean? It can be argued that it still is in a lot of cases now, you know what I mean? But what a better way to. I mean, look at the world right now. I mean, again, like, I’m just saying, how do you control massive amounts of people with fear of things that they’re not sure about or with fear of the unknowable, Right? Like, you just, you just controlled the entire world for a year and with something that everybody’s afraid of, and we still don’t even really know what it is that we’re afraid of. And so it’s just such an interesting thing to look at how fear has been used as a control mechanism for, for, you know, I mean, thousands and thousands of years for something that people didn’t even know, you know what I mean? Or understand, right? And the thing is, like, this is, this is like you said, a hopeful thing when I look at this, because you go, okay, cool. There is some clarity. Like one, we at least in our faith in religion, don’t believe that there’s a line between heaven and hell and that you, you know, if you did just enough not awesome things, you go and you burn in flames forever. And instead the gospel is one of, like, hope. Because the whole idea is, is that even if you don’t live a perfect life or if, if you don’t live up to a certain standard or whatever, you don’t go to somewhere where you’re just going to be miserable and burned for the rest of your life, but even then, it’s in a weird sort of way, very like gracious of God to not put you somewhere that you’re going to just be uncomfortable and miserable and out of place for eternity either. I don’t know. Does that make sense?
[00:22:55] Speaker A: It does make sense. And there’s a few things you said there that I’d like to hit on. Like the idea that you say the unknown, right.
What we fear most oftentimes is the unknowable. It’s not the actual, you know, kids are scared of the monster that they’ve never seen under their bed. Of course. Yeah, the monster in the closet. Because you can’t know it as soon as you know it. As soon as you meet that kid, like Seth, our youngest boy, he was playing soccer and he had a bad experience with a kid that was kind of pushing him around and he got a little intimidated. You know, he’s a four year old and the next game we played, there was a player that looked like the kid that was pushing him around from the previous week wasn’t even the same kid. And because it reminded him of that kid, he wouldn’t go out on the field, he wouldn’t play he just sat on the sidelines and kind of cried. He was just sad. And my wife got this idea, I’m going to go introduce him to the boy and get him to know his name, talk to him a little bit and find out who he is. As soon as he knows this kid and understands this kid is just another little boy like him playing. It’s not the unknown anymore. He’s more familiar. And then all of a sudden, he’s playing soccer and happy again, and he’s over it.
Sometimes it’s the fears of what you don’t know much more powerful that when you start to become familiar with it, if you can know it, you can make it go away, or you can at least understand it, and you can understand how to avoid it or to.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Not avoid it because you don’t need to be afraid of it.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Like in the case of, like, a black widow, I mean, if you’re. You’re afraid of spiders or whatnot. Yeah.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: And I’m always going to be afraid of spiders, sharks, and aliens. So it’s like, I don’t. I don’t necessarily need to meet either three of those.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: But if you understand, I mean, you know how to take the necessary precautions or you know how to act responsibly around them.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: I mean, aliens are kind of unpredictable.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Well, that’s the assholes just. That’s things. That’s the unknown.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: I know that’s true. I honestly, like, no lie was sure. Like, this is when I was even, like, 17. I was old enough to know better, but even at 17, I was like, I just know it. Like, God’s trial for me in life is to be abducted by aliens and try to have to, like, sort out my life after. I’m just saying, like, the fear of the unknown. I would just lay in bed at 17 and just be like, all right, aliens, here we go. A light would, like, drive by my window at 1 in the morning. I’d be like, here they are. All right, beam me up. Let’s go.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: I was almost afraid as a kid to see an angel just because I wasn’t sure what that would be like or what that was like.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: That sounds terrifying too.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: It did. It did.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: It still does.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: There are some terrifying experiences just because they are experiences that we are not familiar with.
And the Lord is doing a lot to demystify that and saying that, you know what? It is not some endless thing that you are going to be stuck in forever. Let’s. Let’s eliminate that right off the bat. But he even Gives us a taste of what it is. He says, hell is something that you tasted in a small degree when I withdrew my spirit from you. And he’s referring to when they lost the 116 pages. Right. When all of a sudden, almost an unknown here, like, what’s going to happen to me? I lost the 116 pages. Did I lose my soul too? Where am I going to go with this? But the worst thing is the Lord removes his spirit from them and they know it’s their fault.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: And there you go. There’s like the age old answer to the question of like, well, then what is hell? Right. I mean, in theory that just answers the question, right?
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Yeah. The Lord’s saying you had a taste.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Of it not being. Not having God’s spirit or not being in the presence of God or you know what I mean? Like not burning on fire. You know what I mean? Having ashes go up your nostrils, not.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Having people poke you with sticks, but.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Not being able to be with God or not being able to have God’s spirit with you.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And there’s a difference. Like if somebody’s being a jerk to you or somebody’s doing something that wrongs you. Yeah. It ticks you off. But I would rather feel ticked or upset and yet vindicated, knowing that I’m right than the feeling that you get when you know you, you’re wrong and you’re like, oh, shoot.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: And you’ve been like defending it.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s deflating, you know, and you’re embarrassed and you’re, how do I fix this? How do I take care of this? And a lot of times we want to run away from it. And that feeling of embarrassment, the shame, almost the exposing, naked feeling you feel when you did something you shouldn’t. Man, I’d rather be mad at somebody else for screwing up than ever be mad at myself for screwing up. And I think that’s what the Lord is doing, is giving us this sample, this idea, this feeling of hell is really coming to realize and see eye to eye with the Lord and understand where he’s right and where we fell short. And we see that with Alma, when he goes through that experience and the humbling that it takes as he’s racked with the torment, not of what other people are doing to him, not of demons poking him with red hot pitchforks, but with his own shortcomings and realizing that he’s not only let himself down, his dad down, but he’s taken a lot of people down a path that he really wishes he could correct.
So it helps us understand and relate to what this hell is. It’s not sure it’s something that we should be afraid of, but when we understand it, we know how to beat it. And the Lord is providing us with a way to overcome it. And he says right there, I’ve suffered so that you don’t have to suffer. And he’s saying that, like, I’ve laid the path, I’ve shown you the way. I’ve done all of these things. And I can’t help but think when I look at my life and I see my family and my children, and I don’t see a lot of the trials that I see other people having to suffer through because they choose different choices. And I see that the Lord has laid out commandments or ways to spare me suffering, that he has suffered and done everything he can to bring me close to him so that if I follow Him, I don’t have to feel that shame or embarrassment near as often because I can turn away or repent or try to avoid something that’s going to mire me into having to feel that with a much greater intensity.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: All right. Now, when we talked about burning in hell and fiery beings, I couldn’t help but think, when I’ve read descriptions of heaven, it’s also described as like, eternal flames. And you look at the word for Hebrew for seraphim, literally it means burning beings, right? And so the celestial fires. It’s funny to me that you’ve got these dichotomies like, whether I go to heaven or whether I go to hell, I’m headed to fire. And maybe that’s not such a bad thing. I’ve always had a problem being a little bit of a pyro in my life, but it is kind of interesting to see that the reason why I bring it up, because the Lord says something else interesting here when he says, I’m going to smite you by the rod of my mouth. And you’re like, wait a second, wasn’t the rod of his mouth, like the word of? Wasn’t that something you were supposed to hold on to? Like, is the rod for holding and helping me? Or is that the rolled up newspaper that he’s going to hit me upside the head with if I’m not paying attention? Like, what is the rod?
[00:30:40] Speaker B: I would like to answer this. Both.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Both it is. There’s double meaning here, and maybe the double meaning when you look back, Spare the rod, spoil the child. Is it the rod that you’re beating your kid with? Or Is he talking about sparing?
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Accuse me of beating my kid?
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Not you specifically.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: I.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Just making sure.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: I mean, obviously there’s a place for discipline in the home.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Yeah, but not with a rod.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: But not.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: But the thing is, I don’t know. Take the double meaning.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: But take the double meaning.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: How do you discipline your child?
[00:31:09] Speaker A: And maybe he’s not saying sparing beating your children. Maybe he’s saying sparing. By holding back the word of God and not teaching the children, you’re going to be spoiling them.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: That’s some good insight right there. That’s. That’s profound. That’s a. That’s seriously. That’s an amazing way to look at that. Because again, I know that people are like, spare the rod, spoil the child. It’s like, cool.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Well, maybe.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Maybe use your words instead of, you know, a stick. You know what I mean? Like, maybe. Maybe if you’re doing what you’re supposed to be as. As like a good parent and trying to, like, teach them how to be good people. Like, yeah, go teach them how to be good people. Because if you don’t do that, they are going to be buttholes.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Well. And even in this case, the Lord is saying, I will smite you by the rod. Not the rod of my hand, the rod of my mouth.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:31:58] Speaker A: By me saying, this is what is going to happen. And if you follow this, you are going to be blessed. If you don’t, there are consequences for not following.
You are being smitten by the consequences following. Your actions were lined out by his word. Word, not necessarily by him beating you with the.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: I love it. This is good insight.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: And we see these. We see these. These double meanings a lot. I mean, we talked about the. The flames of heaven, the flames of hell, the. The rod being for smiting, but also being for saving.
You know, and we’ve. We’ve talked about Janus parallels looking back and looking forward and Christ as the gatekeeper. But you’ve got the water, the water of life. And even see this in Lehi’s vision when he sees the water, right? One of them says, it’s the fountain of living waters. The other one says, no, that is like the waters of hell.
Yeah, yeah. They are getting lost in this water.
And they would look at that as the chaos waters going back to creation. Or they would look at the ocean where you would have the sea monsters and the salty waters. You can’t drink the salty waters. They don’t bring life, it brings death. You go out sailing there and your boat capsizes. You die. So one water brings death, but then you have the fresh water in the desert that is going to bring life.
Serpents. Serpent was lifted up on the cross by Moses. In the ancient inhabitants of America, Quatzalcoatl, they would worship the serpent as a form of God. And then at the other hand, you have the serpent representing the devil, the serpent that is tempting eve.
You’ve got fruit, the fruit of the tree of life that we partake, that gives life. But then you had a fruit of death that brought death into the world.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Wait, did the fruit of. Wait, wait, wait.
I mean, them partaking of the fruit of knowledge, of good and evil is what brought death into the world, right?
[00:33:56] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Well, I don’t know. See, that’s my question. I mean, what would that be? The fruit of death? I guess I’m wondering what tree was that? Or was it just because they became mortal at that point, because they sinned?
[00:34:07] Speaker A: Well, because. Well, that’s a good question.
You can almost look at it as if you had a tree of life that granted eternal life, and you have on the opposite end, a tree of death that would bring death, and by partaking of it, brought death into the world. That’s one way of looking at it. There’s been other ways of looking at it, where they were the same tree.
And then obviously, when they refer to it in Genesis, it’s being referred to as the tree, like you said, of knowledge of good and evil. And it’s not necessarily that the fruit killed them as much as their disobedience to God. And taking the fruit is what brought death.
But whether directly or indirectly, partaking of that fruit brings mortality and death, where symbolically, partaking of the fruit of the tree of life is going to reverse that and bring life to the world. But it’s still a tree, right?
And then you look at hanging on a tree in the Old Testament, that was the worst thing you can do. You take the vilest, most treasonous person, and to appropriately punish him, you hang them on a tree. Do you see that with the Antichrist in the Book of Mormon, when they hang them on a tree? But then Christ himself, the most worthy, the most holy, the most perfect divine person, is hung on a tree when he dies.
So it’s kind of interesting, particularly around the Savior, you get these dual ends. The Son of God, the son of the morning that fell and rebelled. But it’s the Son of God who’s going to bring life eternal. And I don’t know, you’ve just got these weird play on Things that sometimes what’s going to hurt us is what’s going to save us, or what’s going to save us if we’re not doing it appropriately is ultimately what’s going to condemn us. And sometimes it’s the same thing, like looking at our trials.
And oftentimes we say, well, who’s the one that brings us trials? And quite readily we’ll say, Satan. Satan’s the one that tries us. He’s our adversary. But look at the story of Jacob. When he wrestles and earns the name Israel. His opponent, his adversary was God. He wrestles with God. And a lot of times it’s God that’s trying us. The trials, the proving. Is God assigning us to do near impossible tasks? Or who was it that asked Abraham to do the hardest thing ever and sacrifice his son?
And sometimes what we associate with this divine grace that’s going to save us is really what’s going to throw us through the wringer and put us through fire and prove us and test us and refine us.
But when I see that smiting you with the rod, and I couldn’t help but thinking of the rod of iron, and then my mind just kind of wanders as I think about all of these different things. I don’t know that I have a reason why or any sage advice to why we see it. I just find it fascinating that we see it as often as we do.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Well, you brought up a good point too, of like the idea that you have fire in hell and fire in heaven. Because I mean, you talk a lot about the refiner’s fire. And in theory, if there is going to be some sort of like eternal betterment, you know what I mean? Or like an eternal perfecting of people, you know what I mean? What a better symbol of that than being put through the refiner’s fire, you know what I mean? And so it actually is kind of. It actually is a very kind of apropos symbolism for both hell and for both, like purification and eternal betterment.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Absolutely.
I look at the Ten Commandments or the commandments in the Old Testament and God says, thou shalt not kill. And we look at shalt. It’s you will not kill. You will not take the Lord’s name in vain. He is not saying, oh, I want you to not kill, or I am asking you to not kill. He is saying, ultimately you will not do it. It is almost like a prophecy.
Whether it takes now or whether it takes you going through hell to get there, you will not kill.
At some Point the sinner going through this hell and seeing things. Maybe it is a correction, maybe it is the perspective change. We look at the people that thought they were doing righte by altering the message of the 116 pages. They are looking for doing the right thing but their perspective is off. And maybe it is a change in perspective and they realize what they did. They feel that hell, that agony for. Wow. I thought I was bringing about God’s work. I realized I was destroying it. And you humble yourself and you realize you need to turn to the Lord and that hellfire becomes divine fire purifying you like, like you say, love it. Awesome.
Next, talking about going through hell.
This is addressed to Martin Harris. As we said, kind of the beginning. This section is a little bit heavy handed and the Lord’s teaching him to say nothing to this generation. But repentance is something that we’ve seen several times. He says he commands him to repent, to be humble and to teach nothing save it were repentance. And Martin Harris, this is a message that he needs at this point to really take to heart. He’s been chastised by the church for elevating himself above Joseph Smith and making weird claims like, you know what, Joseph Smith didn’t even know what was written in the Book of Mormon until I translated it so he could read it. Like Joseph Smith didn’t know or wouldn’t know anything if it wasn’t for, for me. And he’s starting to be a little bit prideful. He’s one of the first people here in the church and he’s got a lot of importance. If it wasn’t for Martin Harris, the Book of Mormon wouldn’t have been printed. He mortgaged his farm to print the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon didn’t sell. So not only did he mortgage his farm to pay for the first 5,000 books that were printed, but because the book didn’t sell, he ended up having to sell his farm to pay off the mortgage, to pay off the printer, to pay off his debts.
And he lost a lot, his family lost a ton. And he’s almost kind of engendering a sense of entitlement and he’s getting a little bit overzealous here. I mean he deserves it, doesn’t he? Who else has put more into the gospel at this point in time, 1829 and 1830. Who else has given more than Martin Harris to advancing the Lord’s work?
And he’s taking this and he’s getting carried away. He’s Prophesying that Andrew Jackson would be the last president that the United States would ever have. That within a couple years, everyone who’s not Mormon will be burned and wiped off the face of the earth.
He’s kind of, I mean, yeah, he’s committed, he’s put a lot into it, but you’ve seen people like this that sometimes you almost over commit and you start running faster than you have strength. And inevitably if you run faster than you have strength, you’re going to fall.
And this is the Lord warning him, don’t say things like this. Preach nothing save it repentance. You’re missing the point. What are you trying to do? And think about the message that this brings. If you’re not Mormon, you are going to die.
You go back to this idea of scaring people to church in hell. And the Lord is trying to change that message and saying, no, mine is a message of hope, of salvation. I am not looking to sow tares. I am looking to harvest wheat. I need you to go in and find wheat. And instead of finding wheat, he is trying to be very divisive, not unifying. He is trying to scatter, not gather. And the Lord is warning him. And he says a few things here that are very interesting. He says, he tells him, canst thou run about any longer as a blind guide? Or canst thou be humble and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior?
And it’s interesting that he uses the words blind guide. This is years before Martin Harris is going to eventually apostatize from the church. And when he does leave the church, he becomes a guide for the Kirtland Temple. And he’s leading people on these tours and he’s trying to reclaim the Latter Day Saints. He goes on a mission out to England and he’s kicked out of an LDS congregation as he’s trying to preach his version of the gospel to the point where the police actually come and arrest him and haul him off. And here he is saying, I was there at the beginning. I know these things. I am a guide. But he is being a guide to himself and becoming a blind guide. And this is all what the Lord is telling him before any of this has even happened, saying, look, I have seen the cards, buddy.
If you want to avoid where you are headed, this is the counsel that I am giving you. Now, how many times is the Lord trying to call our attention and help us see things and make things easier for us? And our response is, I know, I know, I know, I got this. Don’t worry. I know. I have heard it a hundred times. I know, I know. And when we just go off anyways kind of running down the wrong path.
I mean, in the end, he never denied his testimony.
He eventually comes back to the church and on his tombstone he has inscribed his testimony about the Book of Mormon. And he always refutes, no matter where he strays or how far away he goes. And this guy, he followed Strang as a false prophet, he followed Bishop as a false prophet. He followed all of these guys, about five different offsprings of the church that sprung up and ended up dying out and going nowhere before he eventually returns to the church, comes back to Utah and humbles himself, and kind of everything goes full circle and he sees it. And so many times we do get there in the end. But how much easier of a trail would it have been had we decided to follow the path right off the bat?
[00:44:49] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:44:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don’t want to diminish anything from him, and I don’t want to judge him too harshly.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: I don’t think you are. And the thing is, you’ve got to remember that in this thing too. It’s funny because, yeah, he’s. He’s definitely taking it upon himself to say some crazy stuff and that he’s not.
He’s not qualified to be doing.
But at the same time, like, it’s funny because like, the rebuke isn’t like, hey, just stop talking. It’s like, no, go out and talk. You know what I mean? Go out and preach. Just make sure that you’re actually preaching the right stuff. So I’m just saying it’s like, even then, even then, it’s like, hey, crazy guy. I mean, if, you know, I mean, it’s like, if I were God, I’d be like, hey, dude, you’re not helping. Can you just stop? But instead he’s just like, hey, instead of all this other stuff that’s unimportant, stop saying those things and instead just say like the important stuff and then go out and do it. Right, right. And if you have the desire, you’re called type of a thing.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I’m glad you said that. And. And Martin Harris obviously did have desire.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: He was a little crazy.
[00:45:49] Speaker A: He was a little crazy. And it’s cool to see that the Lord has a special place in his heart, even for the crazy. He’s that guy for sure.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: He was stoked, man. He was just trying to help.
[00:46:01] Speaker A: And that’s the thing. The Lord was able to use him to bring about a lot of good.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: A lot of good.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: The Book of Mormon, being one of the three Witnesses and the place he held and being able to early leadership of the Church, the Lord had a very special place for him. So sometimes we wonder, am I just kind of crazy or am I a little bit off? But you know what? If you have desires, like you said, if you have desires, the Lord’s got a special place for you and he will find a way to make it work. He will find a way to use you to further his good.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Yep. I love it. It is a good closing idea of that guy.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Excellent. All right. Well, thank you for listening. In next week’s show, join in. We’re going to be talking about Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 2022. It’s going to talk a lot about the organization of the church and how the priesthood works and just a lot of the nuts and bolts and structure as the church is getting ready to take off and really make its debut in the world here in the Latter Days. Awesome.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: Until next week.
[00:47:01] Speaker A: All right, see you.
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