Jason and Nate explore the varying significance of scriptures, likening them to music albums with standout tracks that pack a punch. They draw a parallel to the importance of podcast episodes, highlighting that some discussions resonate more deeply than others. Jason reflects on the concept of humility through the lens of Alma 32-35, emphasizing the blessings that come from being humble and receptive to the teachings of the gospel, even under affliction.
The episode then transitions into an in-depth analysis of the tree of life as depicted in Alma 32. Jason and Nate discuss the symbolic significance of the tree of life and its connection to Christ. They elaborate on how the process of growing faith is akin to nurturing a tree, requiring diligence, patience, and consistent effort. They touch on the idea that the tree of life, representing Christ, should be at the center of one’s life, contrasting this with the self-centered worship practices exemplified by the Rameumptom. The hosts also tackle complex questions about the atonement, pondering the justice and mercy intertwined in Christ’s sacrifice. This episode is a rich exploration of faith, humility, and the transformative power of Christ’s teachings.
Transcript:
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with our friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: What’s up, buddy?
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Oh, dude. Just out here enjoying life. How you doing?
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Just out here enjoying life, dude.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: I like it. So. So you know how not all scriptures are created equal?
Sure, yeah. Yeah. Not. Not all scriptures carry the same value, I don’t think, as, you know. So some verses, power back, pack more of a punch.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Some books pack more of a punch.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: And in like manner, I don’t think all podcast episodes are created equal either.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: I definitely agree with that.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: I can definitely look back at the podcast we’ve done and highlight some of my favorites and ones that I’ve looked at and kind of packed a punch that I say, you know what? Those are the ones.
It’s almost like, you know, you buy an album from a band that you really like.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: And they’ve got like two or three really good songs, and the rest you’re like. And then there’s one that you’re like, ugh.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: You must have listened to music in the nineties, dude.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: That’s what I did.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: You bought cds. You bought cds in the nineties. You just gave an accurate description of what it was like to be a teenager.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: You try to force feed. Try to force feed the songs that no one wants to pay for.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: $20 for a piece of plastic, by the way, that has only a handful of actual good tunes on it. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: All of that to say, I don’t know if last week’s was as good as maybe I could have made it, but this week is going to pack a punch. At least I think. I think this is going to be, you know, one of those tracks that’s just going to hit. Well. I’m excited.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: I’m excited, too. I think you did fine last week. I think there was also just a lot going on in the world, too. That was, it was. It had been a fairly distracting week for me, so I definitely don’t feel like I did you any favors.
I didn’t bring anything to really help you last week, so sorry about that.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Well, either way, like Alma, 32 through 35, I think, is one of the media sections, even in the Book of Mormon, which is one of the media scriptures in all. And I’ll say it again, scripturedom.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: I agree. Scripture dumb isn’t a word, but I also, though, feel like we, we should at least touch on a couple things from, from 30 and 31 that we talked about last week, just, even if we just touch on them while we’re talking through 32 because we did miss a couple opportunities.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I’m okay with however you want to approach this, if you want to hit it right here at the front in the intro or if you want to work it naturally into the conversation, because I feel like it lends its way either way, if we want to. However you want to tackle that.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Let me just take a dive off the diving board really quick into just one really important thing that we missed. We missed an opportunity last week.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Let’s hear it.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: I got to teach the 1617 year old Sunday school yesterday, and it was great. It was a bummer that we were missing so many of the people in that class that people are gone. Probably trying to enjoy the end of summer before school gets back. But it was kind of a small class. But we really got into basically a lot of the connections between Korahor and the garden of Eden and specifically talked about how when it talks about in the garden of Eden, who is it or what is it that tempts Satan to partake of the tree of knowledge. Right. We talk as a serpent.
And something that we got to highlight was what else throughout the majority of the Old Testament does the serpent actually symbolize? And that’s Christ.
You have Moses lifting the serpent upon the staff and the whole thing. Right.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Quoxicoatl in the.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: That’s right. In south american tradition and whatnot. Right.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: I. Mexico.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: Mexico. Yeah, there you go. Mexico. Yeah. South American Mexico.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Keep going.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: I should have said Latin. Latin America.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: But why would then a serpent be the thing that represents Satan in this story? And we talked about very specifically how in Korahor, who was it? What did he say was the thing that the devil presented himself as to tell Korahor to not do these things? And he appeared as an angel of light in theory. We believe if an angel of light is coming down to us, it would probably be what? A heavenly messenger of goodness and correctness and kindness. And there’s just something really important to understand, that Satan wanted to appear to Eve as something familiar to her or as something that would comfort her as a source of good information.
He wouldn’t come as some red demon, Panpipe playing, horned animal saying, hey, do this bad thing. Right.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: With a name tag that says I’m Satan.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Yes. With a name tag that says Lucifer, your friend.
But instead, and we even kind of talk about this at the temple is. And as we go through the endowment in such the temple, what does Satan always try to present himself as? Someone of power, someone with priesthood, someone with authority, to say in a very persuasive, in a, hey, I’m just looking out for you. Hey, I’m trying to help you become like God. And it was just a really nice connection for, you know, us and the class to make is that that’s how Satan tries to attack all of us, is he tries to be in a very non threatening way. But we did recognize that in both stories. At the end of the day, he almost still kind of gave Eve permission to do what she wanted to do. Like, he didn’t put the fruit in her mouth and say, hey, I know you didn’t want to do this, but I’m forcing you to do this. It’s like, no, he presented it in a very persuasive, kind of gentle way, but still allowed room for the person that he’s tempting to have a little bit of more internal, moral permission to do something that they already wanted to do. And now more than ever, I would just say this impacted me because as members of the church, we’re told over and over and over, and we should be seeing it around us, that the plan of attack for us is not going to be as cut and dry as a little demon popping up in our bedroom with horns and a name tag that says Lucifer and says, I want you to go kill your neighbor. Right. That’s not going to do anything to us. It’s like it would be. Be gone Satan, and that’s the end of it. Instead, just always be on the lookout for, is there a cause? Is there a movement? Is there a political or social issue that maybe we recognize already within ourselves? We kind of are drawn towards maybe politically, socially, whatever it is that might go against what our standards are, what we believe the commandments are.
That’s the plan of attack. That’s where. That’s where all the adversary needs is just enough safe room to get in and go, hey, we are supposed to serve everybody and love everybody. Great. Well, now let’s just twist that 10%, right. Let’s just whatever. And those are the things that we just see over and over, erode people’s testimonies and faith.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: That’s a very important point.
I like what you landed on, and what you’re saying to me reminds me of the scripture that says, where your heart is, that’s where your treasure will be off. Also, right if Satan’s coming in and he knows that maybe our heart is maybe in something else and really justifying or giving us permission to do what we already wanted to do as an angel of light, like giving us a good reason for why it’s okay that we’re doing something that we know we shouldn’t do, and it gives us all the context we need to justify that action.
Maybe it’s better that I don’t stop and help this person, because, I mean, just, I don’t want to make this too personal or pull too many examples, but looking at maybe the story that Christ laid in front of us with the parable of the good samaritan, when somebody’s on their way and it’s a priest heading to the temple and they see this guy beaten in the path and from him, maybe his heart is not in it to help somebody else.
And all the justification he needs is if I stop and bloody myself with this man, or if he dies on me in the path and I am disqualified from my work, then how am I ever going to carry out the role that I have in the temple? How am I able to perform? I’m going to be unclean. I’m going to be disqualified. And that works more important, isn’t it? And is that not kind of that angel of light mentality that you’re laying out, Nate, is maybe just giving us the context we need to just deviate us that 1% degree away from maybe what, what we should have done, not, not the 180 degree.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yep, nailed it. I think that that is such a perfect point, too, because you, you nailed it. The priest could, in theory, justify what was already in his heart, which is the Samaritan is a known enemy of mine and my people, or at least like a non friendly entity of mine and my people. Really within the priest’s heart. That’s probably more of the truth of it, is probably he knows I should probably stop and help this person, but he’s able to justify his not stopping with, well, I have to go and perform my other priestly duties. And there’s my justification for not doing what I know in my heart. And even church teachings is the correct thing to do, which is to stop and help somebody that is dying and in need of.
It’s fair to argue that probably that the priest’s initial inclination would be, yeah, I don’t really want to stop and help this person that I don’t very much like and that I’m using religion, I’m using the various things to justify that initial feeling he probably already had.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Lest anyone think we’re being overly critical of the priestley, let me remind you that the priest didn’t exist. Right. This is a story where we are supposed to learn about who is the neighbor. And it’s interesting how Christ uses this story. And I know this is kind of taking us a little bit away from element 32, but we’ll jump back in. I think it’s important enough.
Christ is saying, I mean, to me it almost comes back. And we had a conversation about this at our come follow me with the family this week. When we’re talking, maybe it wasn’t even a come follow me, just a family council. But in either case, we were talking about, why doesn’t God just give us a list of everything that we can do or can’t do on the Sabbath day or everything that works out or doesn’t work out. So we just look at it and check it off on the list, and we know exactly what to do. And just as much as you have the context of maybe this theoretical priest, and we don’t know what was in his heart, because, one, he didn’t even exist. So we can take this example and say, what if? Because he didn’t, and that it’s going to fit. Right. Right. But just as much as you have somebody trying to justify away from that, sometimes we look in the New Testament and we find almost the opposite extreme of all of these people trying to keep the Sabbath day holy where they’re willing to. And I say opposite extreme, really, it’s the same kind of lane that the priest is in, isn’t it, when he’s saying, what are you doing rubbing the grain between your hands? It’s the Sabbath day, and that’s causing work. And, and they’re using the law as justification of what you can or can’t do on the SAbbath. And when Christ comes to this example of the good SaMaritan, we remember that the question that was posed to him was, who is my neighbor?
And who is your neighbor? If Christ provides a checklist of, well, the person to your east and the person to the left, the right, the north, the south, or whatever, right. And that classifies as your neighbor? Well, in this case, he’s saying the neighbor was not even somebody of the same country, was not anyone of the same religion or the same backing or the same. They were enemies, what we wouldn’t even deem. But in this story, they were neighbors. And so the spirit really does help us. And I think something that Joseph Smith said, I teach my people correct principles and they govern themselves. Christ says, love God. Christ says, love your neighbor. And then how that goes. And to try to take this wild tangent back to what you’re saying, Nate, and what you’ve kind of opened my eyes with where our heart is, right. If I’m looking for every excuse in the spirit to help me understand what that means, then when an angel of light comes and inspires me and it’s in line with where I am, it’s inspiration, it’s revelation that helps me fulfill with that. But if I’m looking and my heart is somewhere else, anywhere else, off skelter, not aligned with what Christ has said, then when somebody pretending to be an angel of light comes, that backs what I wanted to do anyways. It just pulls me right off course that one degree. And it’s not that we have this perfect guide. And there is inspiration, I think, on either side. It’s kind of that classical cartoon of the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other.
I don’t know, that’s kind of a.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Ramble, but I’m with you.
I think we summed it up pretty well. And then the rest of what we can chat about from last week, I think we’ll mix really nice into 32. So maybe we should just get into 32.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Perfect. I think. I think I know where you’re heading. And I think. I think we can.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: Let’s do it.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: I think we can hit on that point.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: First thing I wanted to bring up with 32 is, you know, maybe, maybe even just the place setting before. Before I get too far into this. And it’s on this hill and on hillside. I think this honest, this, this is obviously going to create connections to us with maybe the sermon on the mount where Christ is teaching people on a hillside. And I think there’s something significant about this. Nate, you and I have talked about hills being representative of mountains and, well, hills are mountains in a sense. Right? Especially if you live in an area that doesn’t have super high mountains. Hills can definitely be considered mountains.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: I mean, in certain states, hills are considered mountains. It’s all relative.
It’s all relative.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: But what I meant to say is that the mountain or the hill can represent the hill or the mountain of the Lord. This is a paradise. The garden of Eden was located on a mountain or a hill. The mountain of the Lord. The temple embodied the mountain of the lord. To have teaching taking place on a hillside is significant, which I think it’s also significant that Joseph Smith, when he’s going to get the plates has to return each year to the hillside, the mountain, to be instructed by angels. Angels. And so you have this commonality, this interesting setting, but where it gets even more interesting is the name of this mountain or hill is Oneida. And Oneida is a very interesting word in Hebrew, on is a homophone, which means that there are two very different words that have different definitions, but they sound the same, and they’re spelled almost identical. Thus, own. And the one definition means affliction, and it shows up a lot. In Alma 32, he’s actually going to use the word affliction, and so it can mean affliction or sorrow.
When you put the I suffix to own, oni. So oni becomes my affliction, and then the da ending. Because it’s a suffix, it’s a shortened form of the hebrew word yada, which means to know and yada. In this particular case, it’s third masculine singular, or he knows. So the word itself means he knows my affliction, he knows my struggles, my sorrow. And, of course, it’s appropriate that a hill is named that, because, I mean, God knows your sorrow. Just having to climb this thing, right? I mean, even going up a hill embodies this idea of affliction or sorrow or having to overcome something.
And so he’s got this people that he’s sitting here teaching, and a group of people show up that have been afflicted, spiritually, physically, financially, they’ve been kicked out of their places of worship, and they’re coming to Alma and saying, what can we do?
And so this is an appropriate setting for them.
But what’s interesting is that Alma is going to capitalize on that and say, you know, blessed are you because of your humility, because you have been afflicted, you’ve been made humble. And because you’ve been made humble, you’re going to be receptive, you’re going to be saved. And blessed are you for your humility. Even goes so far to say you would have been more blessed had you been humbled on your own. But because you were humbled by your circumstances, you’re still blessed. And so he turns this hill, this affliction, this sore point, and he turns it into a blessing for the people and, in fact, the strength, because you notice, as he’s teaching, this is not the first group of people that shows up to be taught. He is already teaching another multitude at this hillside. When this other multitude shows up and he stops teaching them, gives an about face, and addresses this other people and specifically mentions that this weakness, this affliction is going to become their strength. So it’s fitting that at this heel side, the other definition of the word own is strength or fortune. And so he knows my strength. He knows my fortune. And all of a sudden, it’s almost like going into the scripture where God takes weak things and makes them strong.
Or even Paul, who talks about the thorn that he wants pulled out of his side three times and it’s not removed. But really what happens is it becomes a source of strength for the people. And so this hillside really does encapsulate their source of affliction, becomes their strength and their source of salvation, really a blessing to them. And I think it even encapsulates Christ, because what is Christ? He is the stumbling block.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: The rock.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, the rock that people rejected or that stumble on the trip on, yet also the rock that is the founding stone. And you see that idea, that imagery that’s really centered on Christ.
And there’s. I mean, we’ve talked about this in the Old Testament, so I’ll mention this briefly, but I won’t give it a lot of time here. In 1978, a biblical professor, Cyrus Gordon, a brilliant man, noticed for the first time in Hebrew something called the Janus parallel. Janus was the roman goddess who had two faces, one that looked back and the other looked forward. Because of that, he’s also often called the gatekeeper God. And because of that, that’s where we get the name of the month, January, from. Because January sits at the front of the year that it can look back at the previous year and look forward into the year that we’re going into. It’s that. That connecting month. And so, using this God’s name, Janus, he calls a parallel in Hebrew, a Janus parallel, where you have three lines and the middle line has one word that can actually look back to the past and forward to the future at the same time. So this was a genius move by poets in the Old Testament, writing in Hebrew to convey this meaning, the symbolism, this rich power. And it’s a method that wasn’t known about until 1978, was the first time we’ve ever discovered this instance or it’s been written about or that we even knew about it. So suffice it to say, or fair to say, Joseph Smith would not have been familiar of this technique in the Old Testament. Nobody in America or any part of the world that we know of would have been familiar with this writing technique.
And so for him to include this imagery, this power, in the name of the hillside, and we’ve talked about the hebrew use of names and how they convey power. We won’t go into all of that here, but it’s just one more thing that fits with this being written by a hebrew people familiar with Hebrew and familiar with the writings of the Jews and how they wrote in their style.
And to use that, and also to use a word that wasn’t even in the Bible. How did Joseph Smith know that Oneida would have encapsulated everything, when at this point in his life, he had never studied Hebrew, he didn’t know anything about Hebrew, and this word did not exist in any written hebrew sources. And to come up with this word that encapsulates all of this meaning into one, to me, is just a further witness that this book comes from God, does not. I mean, it is what it says it is. It’s written by an ancient hebrew people, not the inventions of a young american boyenne working his farm in the early 18 hundreds, who actually happens to pull all this together.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: He didn’t make it up. There you go. I’ll say it for you. You don’t.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: You don’t need to. You don’t need to mince words. I’ll say it. He didn’t make it up. Knock it off. Knock it off, everybody. He didn’t make it up.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Well, when this other multitude shows up, and I think this is going to kind of touch on something that you want to talk about, Nate.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, let’s get into it, baby.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: It’s interesting to me, it’s fascinating to me that Alma absolutely shuts down the previous people that he was talking to.
How would you feel now? Mind you, it’s not just the multitude of poor people that showed up to talk to Alma, but it says Alma was talking to a multitude. If he’s talking to a multitude already, it’s not just one or two. A fair crowd of people had shown up to hear him speak, and so they’ve put effort into coming out, into listening to him. Is it fair that Alma stops talking to them? And not only does he stop talking to him, but it says in Alma 32 that he turns himself about so that now his back is to them, and he addresses the poor people, and it says that, and he says, no more words to the other multitude. Wow. Is. I mean, what’s the significance of Alma shutting out the other crowd, turning his back to them and rejecting them?
And I think the people that he’s turning his back to, it’s implied anyways, are the wealthier ones, the ones that are attending their synagogues. And their churches that have come out to see what’s going on and the ones that have been turning their backs on the poor and intentionally kicking them out of their synagogues.
And so I look at this and say, is it fair that God turns his back on us? I mean, if Alma is supposed to be representing the savior and he’s coming here to speak to the people in the Lord’s name as an emissary of the Lord, you would imagine that he’s acting in the Lord’s behalf, that he’s doing what the Lord would do. Would the Lord turn his back on a people and stop teaching them?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: I mean, yes, the Lord has taken his word off of the earth before, but the irony is, because I would argue that that’s not the lord necessarily turning his back, but that’s the people turning their back to God. In my opinion, that’s more people rejecting God. I don’t think that. But to your point, though. Yeah, there absolutely. I mean, Jesus himself said that there was going to be a time of apostasy.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think Christ, when he’s twelve years old, he’s found in the temple and he’s teaching in the temple and he’s teaching to a religious people, right. He’s confounding them, answering and some point to where he’s a young boy teaching in the temple, to now, when he’s later in his ministry, he has turned his back on the priests, he has turned his back on the Pharisees. He does no longer sit down and engage with them in this loving, patient kind of way that you see him teaching these individuals or these outsiders, or these poor, or these broken down. In fact, he calls them whited walls and he’s frustrated with them. And I think explicitly is not just turning his back, but he’s actually rebuking them in a more audible, clear way than even what Alma’s doing, when Alma, in a sense, is rebuking them. And so if I look at this and say, okay, the reason that the poor people here are going to be saved is because of their humility. It’s not that Alma has stopped teaching them.
It’s that the lesson he is teaching them is a lesson on humility that they need to first go through before they can get to the next step.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: I also just think that the visuals of it is a really good lesson to the people that he was initially talking to, which is, if I have to completely turn my back on you to speak to these other people, that alone is a rebuke, because these people should be mingled in with you. I shouldn’t have to turn my back on you to speak to the other sheep.
They should be in the main flock.
So I just think even the visual part of that, such a fantastic lesson and a rebuke.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: And speaking of the visual aspect, and this is something I’m glad you touched on, what visual aspect is it if one group of people, multitude, is on one side, and he turns his back and another group is on the other side? Now, what does that put Alma in? What position is he in in relation to the multitudes?
[00:27:08] Speaker B: He’s at the center.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: He’s at the center. And how is that different from what we were seeing in Alma, chapter 30, 31? Who was at the center before, and how was the center? And maybe this is a good springboard. Nate, did you want to.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: I think once we get into. I think once we get into the tree, we can get there.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
I’ll just say. I’ll just say this. If Alma is this emissary of Christ, it does put him at the center. And this idea of having Christ at the center, Alma at the center. I think going to what you’re saying, the visual here, it’s not just powerful in the sense that they should have been among them, they should have had their arms around them, they should have been with the crowd. But also because of this imbalance, you actually have a realignment or the shifting of Alma, or this Christ like figure of Christ being centered in these teachings.
And, boy, what powerful teachings are they? Right? When we get to this tree and faith, and how faith works, and what an apt example. And I think we’re very familiar with, you know, you take this word of God and you plant it and you see if it’s going to grow and if it’s growing and what kind of fruit it produces, and if you taste the fruit and you look at it and say, this is a good fruit, this is a good tree, then you know it’s good. And it’s just kind of this idea that faith is what brings us to a knowledge. And so many times we want to know up front first, we want that security before we take that first step.
But faith is the first step that leads us to the security. We get those steps backwards.
And Alma says something really interesting.
What about those who say that they have tried the gospel or they’ve taken that seed and they’ve planted it and it never turned out anything for them, or they didn’t get anything from it, or it just wasn’t worth it, the tree never produced any fruit. And how does that work in the example? And that’s a kind of a detail that alma points out that I had never really focused on.
And if I can just read this verse 38, but if you neglect the tree and take no thought for its nourishment, behold, it will not get any root. And when the heat and the sun cometh and scorcheth it away, because it hath no root, it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out. Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable, but it is because your ground is barren, and you will not nourish the tree. Therefore, you cannot have the fruit thereof.
And so it’s not. It’s not a fair chance or trying things out if we’re expecting the fruit to take over and do everything for us.
And, yes, a tree eventually will take root, will produce fruit, and will provide us with food, and it will take care of us in the time of its season, but only if we take care of it first.
And there’s a lot of diligence that goes in that. Watering the plant, weeding the plant, tending it, providing it with. With fertilizer, making sure that the freeze doesn’t destroy it, you know, trimming out the branches. There’s just work that goes to taking care of it before it can take care of you. And that’s a process. And I like that Alma calls that out.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: Love it.
I love it.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: Any. Any. Anything you want to go with on this?
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Uh, a man? I just. I think we just got to get into the tree.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Let’s get into the tree.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Couple details that I loved that I picked up on this week that. That definitely sent me into some fun places of, you know, looking at different symbolisms and things. But I love that in 41, it tells us the type of tree that we are growing. I think as a kid, you know, we learn the song. Even as a missionary, I think we focus really on what you just spoke to, which I think is fantastic, by the way. I’m not saying this in any sort of a negative way. I think so much of the focus is on the process of growing the tree and not the type of tree that we are supposed to be growing. And I understand why, by the way, because as a missionary, as children, as adults, I’m sure, too, so much of the beauty in this lesson is, how can you have faith if you’re not finding a place that faith can root? And you look at the symbolism of a tree, more or less interchangeably, I think, probably with any other plant.
And again, I’m not saying this in a negative way, but for me, at least when we taught this, it was so much more of like, hey, a seed that grows into something strong. Right? That’s what I’ll say.
But in 41, it tells us the type of tree that we’re growing. Very specifically in 41, I believe it’s 41, it says that we’re growing the tree of life.
And that detail, man, unlocked a lot, dude. It unlocked a lot for me.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: And behold, it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: And that’s awesome, dude.
And, I mean, obviously, where that sent me then is, okay, well, where do we first. Where do we first learn about a tree of life?
The Garden of Eden. Right.
So back to kind of where we were at. I found this article. I kind of stumbled upon it.
I have it somewhere on my phone or whatever. I’ll kind of summarize some of it because it’s a really intense article, but it’s awesome. But so much of it talks about the location of where the tree of life was and the idea that maybe the tree of knowledge in the tree of life, it says that they were both in the midst of the garden or in the middle, in the center. Right. And so much of this then just really begin to kind of take shape for me. Even what you just talked about, right, of Alma standing in the center of people, at our hearts, where our hearts are. That’s where, you know, our intentions or our treasures are at the center of our body, at least symbolically, these things. But talks about the tree of life being at the center of the garden and next to it being the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And in this article, it talks about how there has been some different scholars that have suggested that maybe the tree of knowledge was grown in a way that it almost shielded or kind of hid the tree of life. So you almost would have not been maybe able to see it. Or a veil. Right. There’s a veil standing between Adam and Eve and the tree of life. The suggestion, at least in this article, or not, maybe even the suggestion, but the idea is maybe Satan’s plan was a lot more intense than we’re kind of giving it credit for. Because, again, we’ve talked about Satan doesn’t tell Eve necessarily to do something wrong. Big picture, which is you want to become like God. That’s the big picture proposition. Right. Well, what does God also want us to do? Become like God. Oh, okay, cool. We’re starting in theory. These two are then starting out on the same premise to become like God, let’s just say.
And then you go, okay, well, then why on earth would Satan have Eve do something that God also wanted her to do? And we’ve always kind of boiled it down to, and I still think that we’re probably right, but you and I have at least boiled down to, well, he told her to do it as a disobeying of God’s commandment. And that’s basically the depth of where Eve went wrong in this. And this article at least poses a possibility that, no, that’s not even where Satan’s plan was trying to go. The idea was that maybe Satan’s plan was, I want you to partake of this fruit knowing, yes, this is part of God’s plan. That’s fine. But what that does is when you break through that veil, when you can see on the other side, the tree of life, that your natural inclination will be to then want to partake of the fruit of the tree of life, knowing now that you understand good from evil and know, here’s how amazing eternal life could be. The idea is Satan was more just trying to create the.
I guess, the paradox, right? Or the. Or the situation where disobeying of a sin, then partaking of the tree and then frustrating the entire plan of God’s plan, which is, again, a much more diabolical and nefarious, bigger term plan than, hey, I want you to do this just so that you’ll disobey goddess, because that doesn’t really serve a purpose.
Big picture, even for Satan. Whereas Satan foresaw a much more terrifying situation. Therefore, God had to step in and say, no, I’m putting cherubim in the flaming sword in front of this so that if you reach forth your hand, you know, right. It’s better that you get your arm cut off than the universe explodes or whatever. Whatever would have been the fabric of the universe falls apart.
And that, again, the idea of the tree of life or what it is that then we’re growing within us also is, okay, cool, back to the tree of life. What is our center then? Where is the tree growing with us is the idea that the tree of knowledge, being a veil is something, by the way, that we all have to kind of pass through as the other veils that we talk about. Right? We came into this life also becoming innocent like a child. Right? We came into this life needing to learn good from evil. Luckily, we have a savior that is willing to do, you know, to.
Was willing to pay the price for our sins. We can then. We can then return back to the fold.
Basically, where I wanted to get to with this is the beauty of all of the symbolism in the tree of life lands in third Nephi, where it also talks about the Christ coming and visiting the people in the Americas after his resurrection. And then you look at the symbolism of that, right? Christ in the center, or the tree of life, because that’s what we believe. We’ve talked about this, too, even, right, the menorah, so many things, even a tree itself being a representation of not only Christ, but the cross that he was lifted up on. We’ve already gone through all that. I don’t want to just rehash that to death. But in third Nephi, you have Christ then, standing in the midst of the people, and who does he surround himself with?
Little children, right? But it’s like Christ came and pierced that veil. Christ came and removed that separation so that.
So that the innocent could return immediately to him, could come and partake of that fruit, right, where Adam and Eve. Where Adam and Eve were then cut off from that fruit of the tree of life for their own good, right? For the good of humanity.
Christ came to pay that price so that we can all in. I mean, even in our temple ceremonies, right, we can all symbolically return to the tree of life or to the Garden of Eden. I. To do what? Well, now is the time that we get to return to the garden of Eden to partake of that fruit that Adam and Eve couldn’t, because Christ came. Because Christ came and did that for us. And then again, let me. I’ll just finish the thought and then turn it back to you. But what I love is that there’s this idea of what we are growing within us should be what should be a tree of life from inside, too, because, like we just talked about, what does that tree represent? Christ.
And what are the fruits? What are the fruits of that? What are we told what the fruits of the spirit are?
We’re taught what charity is. We’re taught what love is. We’re taught compassion. All these things. These are all the fruits that we’re told are the fruits of the spirit within each of us. I mean, each week we have the opportunity to partake of the sacrament and to make those covenants associated with the sacrament, to eventually. What? To become one with God.
It’s. Once we look at Alma 32, I think, with the perspective of what the faith is that we’re planting within our hearts should spring forth into us becoming Christ, to us becoming one with him. For Christ to be so deeply embedded in our center, in our hearts, in our core, that our actions, that our thoughts, that all of these things naturally are the fruits of that tree of life. And again, also in third Nephi, Christ says as much. When he says, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth and saviors of Mendez, he puts that charge on us as well, that as we become more like him, it’s as disciples of Christ. It’s part of our charge to save our neighbor, to serve, to save, to be saviors of men, to be the salt of the earth or the thing that hopefully preserves the earth.
I look at that seed and that idea of faith. It’s so much more than just the process of growing a tree. It’s really. It’s really the process of growing the tree with a capital t h e. Right.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: It’s the process, or even arguably, becoming the tree.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Becoming the tree. Have that tree. Yes.
Faith, as you’ve said so many times and has stuck with me, is such an action word.
It’s not just a belief. It’s not just a hope.
It is. Do our actions reflect, or in this case, what is the fruit of that tree?
Is it something to just look at? Because, by the way, that’s not how you tell if a tree has good fruit or not. It’s not by looking at it. It’s by taking a bite. That’s how you know if the fruit’s good or nothing. And if truly the.
Yes, this is more just about. Or this isn’t just about faith, but more just. What does your faith make you become?
How has it changed you from your core out? So, anyways, that scripture really jumped out at me and just sent me off onto a different place. But, man, it really hit home for me this weekend.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that’s amazing.
I’m so glad you shared that. There’s a lot of things in there that I actually don’t mind going back and trying to reiterate.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Well, no, I don’t want to say I lost over this. I know, I know. I just went to, like, 1300 miles an hour there. So please go back and dissect it or correct it as needed as well.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: No, no, I. I loved what you’re saying, and I love the idea that when you’re centered on Christ as opposed to being centered on ourselves, and with that tree growing in us, that becomes our new core, our new center, our new heart, that’s the midst of us. Right? That hebrew word, it means the midst, the core, the heart of us.
And just to contrast that with what we saw in Ramyampton, and this is something you pointed out to me as you were making your observations, is that Ramyampton was a tower, not built at the front of the building, but built at the center of the building. And it only allowed one person to get up to the top of that tower. And so who is the center at that point?
And when you’re up there expressing how great you are or how great things and how great you have it, then, then are you not making yourself the center? And is that not what deviated Eve, for example, when he’s saying, like, hey, this is how God’s did it. And, yeah, God wants you to be like him, but don’t you want to what, what are your desire and, like, trying to put. And really, it’s, it’s just that subtle. And this is something, Nate, that you’ve really been pushing and teaching me through when you talk about the two great commandments and the first being to love God, and the second to love our neighbor. And, and sometimes when it goes down to the first and says, love God, it says, don’t thou shalt not have no other gods before me. And that God that most often, I think, we put before goddess is ourselves.
When we find ourselves at the center of that building and we’re trying to grow our own fruit, we find it’s just missing.
But when we can try to put Christ at the center and try to nourish his words and give room for his words and have faith, and like you say, that action of building that and whatever to where he comes alive within us. And I love that you pointed that out. I mean, verse 42 says it quite, quite clear, right? 41. And behold, it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life. And what kind of tree, whose fruit thereof gives you everlasting life? It is the tree of life in 42. And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word and nourishing it, that it may take root in you. Behold, by and by, you shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious. And is not how lehi and Nephi describes this, the tree of life, vision, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet and which is white above all that is white, yea, impure, above all that is pure. And you shall feast upon this fruit even until you are filled, that ye hunger not. And then get this, neither shall ye thirst. And this reminds me of Christ at the. With the woman at the well when she’s trying to get the water out. And he says, I have water that if you drink of, you will never thirst again. And what is that that he’s referring to?
And I think what it can all boil down to is not the need to try to change God into us, to try to fit God into what we want him to be, to try to change God into whatever justification or context in order to make life better for us. But how do we fit ourselves into what God wants us to be? How do we fit ourselves to where our will is aligned with his, to give room to take care of that, that all of a sudden, he does see his image in our countenance, because we are like him, and that tree is with us, and we are that tree. And if we’re the tree of life, well, Christ is the tree of life. And I know you said you didn’t want to kind of go through that, but I think real quickly we can just maybe highlight the significance of Christ being the tree of life.
When you talk about the menorah, it’s described as that tree. And it’s in revelation, chapter one, when it says, I am Alpha and Omega, and I have come to take care of the sins of the world. And there’s no confusion about who’s talking. And John turns to see the voice, and he sees the menorah and this tree of life, and he makes that connection.
And Nephi, when he says, I desire to know the meaning of the tree of life that my father saw. And the angel says, behold, and the angel’s gone. And he looks and he sees not the tree, but Christ being born.
And he says, now do you understand what the tree signifies? And, yes, it’s the love of God, for God so loved the world that he sent his son. This is the tree and the fruit of that tree. The fruit of Christ’s life was resurrection, atonement, being brought back into the presence of Goddesse.
And he is that tree. And if we can have that tree in us and grow in us to where we become that tree, are we not becoming like Christ?
Is that not the purpose of the sacrament?
So those.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: I mean, those are kind of the fruit. I do want to just highlight something, too. I do love, and I wish we had brought this up when we were talking about ramyamtum, but I.
But look at the way that that. Look at the way that that synagogue is set up and look at what we’ve been talking about with the garden of Eden and kind of physically the structure, right? You have this garden up on top of a mountain, and in the center of that is eternal life, right? The tree of life. And then again, this article brought it up. But you look at the ark, you look at the way that the ark is set up, and it’s almost. It’s almost in the same temple structure, right? On the outlandish, in the courtyard, you have kind of the lower animals, and then whatever the second level or whatever it is, you have the birds and such. And then what is kind of, again, at the center, on the highest level, is you have man and his family. And we talked about, again, the different windows or potential sources of light that could come into this ark. Something we talked about in the class was that we didn’t really.
We didn’t really mean to go there, but we’re like, it also would have been really scary to be on that ark and have just outside dead bodies just bumping up against it. And you’re like, I know, but there’s a symbolism in that, too, though, right? It’s like outside of the ark or outside of the protection of that ancient temple, let’s just say, or sacred structure. What do you have? Is you have death. You actually have turmoil and destruction and death.
And what did Adam and Eve find when they got kicked out of the garden? They found thorns. They found dirt that had to be tilled. They found death, by the way, too, when they had to leave the top of the mountain. They also eventually knew they were going to have to die. And look at what the world becomes. The idea that even the temple is a sanctuary kind of hit home. It talked a lot about Moses, speaking of the menorah, Moses seeing the burning tree. Right. The burning bush up on top of Mount Sinai, slightly down the mountain from him was what, another circle. Right. Of the priests. I think Aaron maybe was probably part of that crew. Right, and the priests. And then what was down below that? You have kind of the rest of the children of the covenant. And what do you have outside of that? A wake of death and destruction, by the way, as the children, I’m just saying it’s like you see a world outside of that. That’s death.
That’s not goodness.
And again, this brought it back to. Or look at the ancient temple. Yes, but look at the ancient temple, too. You and I went and did security service. Remember when we went and we were security guards for the. For, like the ancient. The ancient temple tabernacle. Yeah.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: In the stake center.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: But you’ve talked about how that’s set up right? Is you have a courtyard where everybody can come in to bring their sacrifices to the priest. And then what’s within the center of that? You have the holy place. Am I correct about that? Is that what’s next when you get.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: To the temple itself?
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Yes. So, so you have the courtyard, the outer courtyard, and then you have a.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Courtyard of the Gentiles, and then the courtyard of the women, the court of the Israelites, the court of the priests. And then you get to the temple and you pass through the veil into the holy place. You pass through the veil to the.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Holy place, the holy of Holies. And what’s at the center of that, right, is the ark of the covenant and the commandments and whatever. And you’ve brought this up. But again, correct me if I’m wrong here, but as I’ve been going through this, who is allowed into the holy of holies? Isn’t it just one person?
[00:51:53] Speaker A: The high priest?
[00:51:54] Speaker B: And it’s only, what, once a year?
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Once a year on the day of atonement?
[00:51:57] Speaker B: Okay, now go back and look at Ramyamtum. What a disgusting, like, mockery of the ancient synagogue, right? Is that in the center of a synagogue, instead of having the holy of holies, what do you have? Instead of it? You have a fake tower. You have a fake mountain. That’s only purpose is served to do what? Is to show everybody the one person that can be on top of it and how righteous they are and how much. And how, and how they’re so fake humble that they want to show the world how great they are and how humble they are. It’s like it’s almost the, it’s almost the exact opposite in mockery of what a holy of holies should be, of what the center of that temple should be.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: But the irony is it’s almost the same. Just like Satan, right? Because isn’t that tower that you’re going up, that mountain that you’re climbing, the ram emptam tower? Isn’t that meant to exalt manda? You’re walking up to the top just as much as God’s holy of holies is to exalt men. Do you want to be like God? Do you want to be exalted? Isn’t that the same thing that Satan offers?
[00:53:01] Speaker B: That’s exactly.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: It’s a cheap imitation. It’s an interesting imitation.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah, but it’s disgusting when you actually, like, think about it, because you’re just like, my goodness, like, that’s not, that’s not how, that’s not how God built his temple. That’s not how God officiated in his temple. Yes. One person was allowed to go into the holiest of holies, and you’ve said it before that you had to, like, tie a rope to the duke in case he died.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: So.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: Joke.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: Right?
[00:53:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So you could drag him out. Right.
[00:53:28] Speaker A: If he wasn’t holy, he had to fish him back out somehow.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Cause you couldn’t go in.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: I do.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: That’s right. Anyways, that’s.
It was the Ramyamtom thing that I was like, dang it. We kind of missed an opportunity to talk about how even.
But like you said, ramyamtum is. What’s at the center is me, not. Not the right. You go to Ramyamtum to. To exalt yourself as if you can.
Anyways, all right, we can keep going.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: And. And, you know, I think it’s something we’ve got to be careful with even today, as long as we’re on the topic of Ramyamptom. And I’m just saying this. I mean, you’ve got Alma and the missionaries coming in as outsiders, and this looks to them horrific. Like, here we are. Thank goodness that we’re saved and everyone else isn’t.
I think our fast and testimony meetings, we’ve got to be careful. We do have visitors coming in from time to time to see what it’s about, what are we doing and how are we worshiping?
And we have an opportunity to walk up to the front one at a time and to share a testimony and to testify of Christ. But sometimes we get so caught up in the moment that we tend to make it more about ourselves. Or at least that’s something that we need to be careful that we’re not taking that moment to try to make it about ourselves and what we’re doing and what we’re experiencing. But how do I testify of Christ? How do I not exalt myself? But how do I exalt Christ in the process? And, you know, it’s tricky.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: Well, it’s tricky because I think, you know, my feeling on open mic Sunday as a whole, I think maybe some of my biggest beef with is it is. It does feel like a missed opportunity in so many cases. And I remember bringing, bringing investigators to fast and testimony meeting was always kind of like a crapshoot a little bit.
[00:55:26] Speaker A: Because you might be some of the best meetings.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: And that’s. And that’s what it was, is. That’s what it was, is that some of the meetings, you really felt. You really felt that we all kind of got it, which is this is our opportunity to testify of the things that we’re told to have a testimony of. And again, some of those meetings were so good. And you’re like, man, I’m so glad I was able to bring an investigator to this so that they could see, oh, these guys are christian number one.
These people are very much devoted to the idea of, you know, basing their life off of Christ and his teachings. Oh, they’re testifying of a restoration of these things. So I know where to go to find this information on the earth. Right? And you’re just like, sweet. And then some meetings, you just have to be like, hey, man, can you just completely forget everything that you just heard? Like, I’m really sorry. I’m really sorry that this is the one I brought you to. And so maybe, maybe it’s, maybe that’s where a lot of my likeness comes from. A little bit is because it’s just like, what an opportunity that I feel like it’s missed so much, so many of the times that we do it.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: But because I know we’ve all sat in meetings that have just inspired us, that we’ve just felt that and you know, it, and you’re strengthened because of it. And we’ve all sat in meetings where at the same time, just some things can be a little off putting. Especially you got some, some people coming in to see what’s going on and, and even the imitation that we were talking about between, you know, the high priest going in the holy of holies and one person going up on the Ramyhampton or Satan offering, this is how you be like God versus God, saying, I want you to be like me.
And sometimes even simple as I know this church is true. I mean, it is a true church. But looking at some of the things that they’re saying when they’re saying, thank goodness that God has saved us and not anybody else, and, and I’m not saying we should never testify that I think I said it all wrong. I’m not saying that it’s wrong to say that the church is true. I hundred percent believe that we should testify that the church is true. But sometimes how we do it, it’s just that close of an imitation between the church is true versus God has saved me and not you. And maybe the difference being is just the focus in am I centered on myself and how grateful I am that I am better than everyone else because of this, or am I focused in the christ? And humbly, I am so grateful that he has provided me with this opportunity to find salvation, and I want to share it with everyone. And it is hard. And I don’t want to be critical on that front. I just want to remind people that there’s power there and an opportunity, and we need to approach it in the right way, with the right spirit and be humble so that we don’t come across as Ramy antim doing the same thing. Because sometimes that line is very thin.
[00:58:29] Speaker B: If I said that totally, we just, we saw kind of the perfect illustration of this. Even a few weeks back when Ammon and his brothers are getting together and expressing joy and gratitude. And they were, for whatever’s worth, they were keeping themselves in check as well, which is just like, hey, let’s be careful not to become something that we’re not. And I think that ammon kind of laid it out perfectly, which is just like, hey, I’m not rejoicing in myself. I’m rejoicing at how happy this makes me. I’m rejoicing in the salvation that I have. I’m rejoicing in the salvation that we’ve been able to share with others. And I think that you’re right. That’s totally appropriate. And it is sometimes a bit of a fine line.
Anyways. All right, we can keep going.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: All right, I’m going to move on. I’m going to talk about how we nourish that tree, because I think that’s what comes next as we dive into chapter 33. And even a little bit later on, as we get into 34, they quote the prophets Zenas and zenith, which we don’t have the original words from. But thank goodness that somebody saw value in there and dragged it out, even if we don’t have the context, the idea that we can pray to always.
And I think this is a big question. In fact, I like these chapters because they address some pretty heavy hitting questions, I think one of which is they’re asking Alma, what do we do now? Because we don’t have a church that we can attend. And Alma’s quoting Zenas and zenith and saying, do you have to be at church to worship God? And I don’t want this to be an excuse of I don’t ever need to go to church again because I can worship God in the mountains, or I can worship God at the lake, or I can worship God in my own, in my own way. Right? Because again, who are we putting at the center? If the reason why I’m out in the mountains or out at the lake or out of the whatever is because I’m trying to satisfy my own desires, my own. And Satan’s providing me with that fruit to the context that I need the push to just do my will anyways, then, then I’ve shifted that, that focus. What Alma’s addressing here are people that aren’t even allowed into the church. And until you can, don’t give up. Look at his father, Alma. When they weren’t allowed to pray at all, did that cut them off from the presence of God? And don’t let yourself be cut off from the presence of God. Even if you can’t attend the church or the temple as much as you would like. How do you maintain that connection to God when you don’t have access to it? And there’s been all sorts of times throughout history when people lose access to the temple or lose access to the church. We lost connection Covid globally with some things, and yet we still found a way to maintain that connection. And I think those words are powerful here.
Don’t wait till you’re in church to worship.
The church is critical for the structure, for the organization, for the priesthood, the ability to administer ordinances and that authority to administer saving ordinances and bring us into the presence of goddess. But it cannot replace the personal connection that needs to be ongoing with or without the church. And that’s where Alma brings in these words from zenas and zenith. And Alma comes back and amulet comes back and reinforces these pray always.
The building of that tree, the nurturing of that tree comes in, maintaining a close spiritual relationship with God. That’s how we nourish the seed. If we stop praying, if we stop seeking the spirit and having revelation, then that tree is going to wither and die. And it’s not because the tree was bad, it’s because we didn’t take care of it when we had the chance.
Don’t stop praying.
[01:02:06] Speaker B: Love it. Don’t stop believing.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: Don’t stop.
The other crucial one that I think amulek hits on the head is actually 30 411.
Now, there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another.
Now, if a man murdereth, behold, will our law, which is just take away the life of his brother. I say unto you, nay, and to me that’s one of the greatest paradoxes or one of the greatest, I don’t know, issues maybe that someone can look at Christianity and identify it as potentially its greatest flaw is how can God, who was all powerful and all loving and all whatever, justify the wicked because of the death of a righteous person?
And what family does that ever make sense if all of us brothers are out doing crazy, weird things and say the youngest son, the Joseph of the story of Jacob and his twelve sons, right? If his death, which by the way, is a type of Christ, right, did his death not save all of his brothers, him going into Egypt did not physically save them after all, but at the same time, is it fair that his life was stolen or taken away to make it right for everyone else? And can you count everyone else as righteous simply because one person died for them?
That’s a critical issue.
And amulet tries to explain it away and say, no man can pay for the sins of another.
But then he says, but God can. And that’s why it had to be a God that sacrificed himself, because only God can pay for the sins of the other. And I’m okay with that. I’m seeing that. But in my mind, it doesn’t make it better. It makes it worse.
So you’re saying an innocent person can’t die for me because that would be wrong. I don’t think anyone, I don’t think if I go and murder somebody and then I go to court and I’m convicted and everyone says, yeah, he’s definitely guilty, then some innocent person like my poor wife, who maybe had nothing to do with it, says, you know what? I’ll pay. I’ll pay for it. Execute me and we’ll call it good. I don’t think any court is going to let me go out and run around and risk the chance of me murdering someone else because someone who had no guilt in this is now dead. That doesn’t, doesn’t meet the demands of justice. And so Amulek saying, well, it does in this case because it was a God, in my mind, that’s saying, well, it does because this person wasn’t only righteous, he was super righteous. You’re like, wait a second, doesn’t that make it even worse? Like I killed a God over making me, like, making the person even better, that dies for me doesn’t seem to justify my wickedness anymore, does it?
[01:04:57] Speaker B: Correct.
[01:04:58] Speaker A: So. So for me, amulethemental addresses this problem head on, takes the bulls by the horn, but I don’t find satisfaction in his answer.
And I think it’s a legitimate question and it’s one that I’ve wrestled with, and I think it’s one that Christianity has to wrestle with. If we’re christians, how do we feel comfortable Christ paying our sins?
And when you talk about him being in Gethsemane and how many drops of blood did he shed for me and Mel Gibson. When he makes the passion of Christ, doesn’t he film his own hands driving the nails through Christ because he wanted to show that he had a role to play in Christ dying? Like, he’s also culpable for killing Christ because he died for his sins?
And how does that inspire me to be better? Knowing that an innocent person had to die for me and that I’m killing God. And in my mind, that breaks my heart even more.
I’ve always been taught to own up for my own sins or to confess up for my own mistakes. If I did something. It’s not fair to make my sister punished or my brother punished. I have to say I did that and do whatever I can to make it right. So how come I can’t pay for my own sins? How come my suffering gets heaped on even more to the suffering of Christ? And why is that fair? And how is God fair for letting an innocent person die and suffer and not allowing us all to carry that same weight?
And any. Any thoughts on that, Nate?
[01:06:26] Speaker B: I’m just going to say something. You did say something that I think needs to be said, though, is you said, knowing that this person was not only innocent, but super innocent breaks my heart even more. I’m like, I think that’s the purpose. I think that’s the point, bro.
I think you just said it. I think that’s the answer.
I think that that’s the. That’s where we’re trying to get with this. Is that, yes, it should break your heart even more. And isn’t that what Christ asks us to have? Isn’t that what Christ asked in return? He says, I did this, and what do I want back from you? A broken heart and a contrite spirit.
[01:07:07] Speaker A: Isn’t that Alma turning his back on the people?
I mean, is that meant to break their hearts a little bit and maybe get them to humble themselves or change? Or. I mean, isn’t that the whole purpose of the atonement? To inspire change?
[01:07:22] Speaker B: I think the.
Because what does change inevitably lead us to do?
Feed other people, serve other people. I guess the point is, the better we become, it can only be done by breaking us down, breaking that muscle down, maybe breaking that soil for the seed to be planted. I mean, that’s the cleaving, it’s the separation. It all comes back to the same thing.
Listening to you describe it made clear for me what that answer would be for me. But I don’t know. I mean, maybe that’s. Maybe you have a different perspective on that. But I think that to me, that’s kind of the obvious place, is that it had to be the most innocent person.
It had to be the super righteous person, because it should hurt knowing that we contributed to that. And hopefully, that’s the thing that inspires us to become better.
It’s why I think that during the sacrament, we have such an opportunity that sometimes missed. And I’m saying me, myself here, is that we maybe don’t put a lot of focus on the crucial part of that ordinance, which is the breaking of the bread.
Like, you have to have somebody up there tearing a body to shreds.
And that should inspire us to think, well, what does that represent?
Does that represent a whip? Does that represent a crown of thorns?
Does that represent nails and a spear while that’s happening for us, or while those young men are up there doing that?
Because that’s what. That’s what it symbolizes.
And it’s dark.
But the covenant, the ordinance, is dark. Like it’s heavy.
It should be heartbreaking.
And each week we have the opportunity to participate in that.
Do we take the opportunity to think of how violent Christ’s atonement was?
Because when we do. You just described it.
It breaks my heart even more as it’s supposed to.
That’s the point of it. Man.
[01:09:50] Speaker A: Well washed white in his blood. I mean, even the temple you look at, you’ve mentioned the death and destruction that sits outside of it. But literally outside the temple is where you were sacrificing and killing animals.
And the high priest didn’t walk into the holy of holies and clean white clothes. He walked into the holy of holies in blood stained red from the sacrifice that he offered and from the blood, by the way, he was carrying into the holy of holies to put on the ark of the Covenant.
He was washed clean, literally, through the blood of the lamb. That blood, which usually defiles, sanctified him so that he could enter into the holy of holies. It was because of the blood that he was cleaned. It was because of the blood of Christ that we were made clean.
It’s an interesting concept. And I think the atonement is so complex, so multifaceted, yet at the same time so plain and so clear and so easy. It’s just even within itself, it’s a paradox that way.
It’s something as broad as the universe to cover everybody and yet so intimate to speak to my heart, to inspire change and the one. But to save a nation as a whole or the earth and resurrect everybody.
It’s a lot of different things. And thinking about some of these questions, I think, helps us to see it from different angles, from different perspectives.
And when I was thinking about this, and I was thinking about Amulek’s question now, how is it that one man innocent can die and pay the sins for someone that was guilty? I started thinking about that a little bit.
And when we are baptized, we take upon us the name of Christ, right?
And when we perform the covenants in the sacrament, we’re taking his body on us, his blood, we’re taking his name upon us, we’re taking his spirit with us. We’re promising to act like him, to behave like him. We’re essentially trying to be like him. And he says, when the shepherd calls, I will call you by my name.
And if you respond to my name, then you’re going to be saved. If you respond by any other name, then you’re not mine.
And as I think about that, it made me think of the atonement maybe slightly differently, and maybe I’m a little skew on this, but Christ didn’t die so that Jason could be saved. Christ died so that Christ could be saved. He is the way, he is the door. He is the only one that has paid that price that is qualified, that through his merits, can get into heaven. And if I want to get into heaven, it’s not on my path, it’s not on my road, it’s not on my deal. It’s through him. He’s almost created a tunnel or a passage or a way that through him, I can be saved.
And so I change my behavior, I change who I am. And some of that impact, like you say, of thinking about him, innocence, suffering, and going through what he could to try to save me, helps me become closer to him, to relate with him, that he has empathy on me. He became like me so I could become like him. And as I plant that tree, as we were talking, and that tree starts to grow in me, and as I reach out to try to save others, I find that I have become the tree of life. That I have become like Christ. That I have found salvation not of my own merits, because I am saved, but because in essence, I have become like Christ.
That really he was the only one saved in the end anyways.
And therefore, no man comes to the father except through him. And through him we find salvation. And through him we find our independence. We find who we are. We find rebirth, but only by becoming like him. And through the way that he is opened, that only through him we can be saved, if that makes any sense.
[01:14:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it’s.
Yeah. That leads down a whole other discussion like that we’ve had in the past about the coverings, about Jacob and Esau, the whole thing. But yes, I’m with you.
Cool. Anything else we want to hit on?
[01:14:16] Speaker A: Ah, boy. I think we’ve probably, I think we’ve probably covered a lot of what we needed to cover it. I mean, this was a lot of faith, a lot of atonement, a lot of, a lot of powerful verses.
[01:14:29] Speaker B: Okay, well, let’s, let’s wrap it up. We are, we’re definitely, definitely putting a long one today. So we can, we can cut it short. Shorter.
Appreciate everybody listening, appreciate everybody being willing to share this with their friends and their family. Thankful for the questions and comments that we get. Please continue to send them.
You can get ahold of us at the email address. High deep dive.com.
yeah.
Let us know what’s going on.
That’s all we’ve got for this week. So until next week.
[01:15:04] Speaker A: See ya.
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