In this week’s Deep Dive podcast, hosts Jason Lloyd and Nate Pyfer explore the fascinating story of Ammon from the Book of Mormon. They discuss Ammon’s dynamic character as a powerful missionary and defender, delve into speculative insights about his early rebellious years possibly influencing the Nehor movement, and examine the founding of the city of Ammonihah. The episode also highlights the significant roles of women like Abish and Lamoni’s wife, and reflects on themes of leadership and justice. The hosts encourage listeners to consider the deeper meanings of Ammon’s story and invite feedback and engagement.
Transcript:
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd. Here.
Boy. Remotely in the studio somehow. Whatever. I got to figure out what the new verbiage on that is, but with Nate Pyfer, the show’s producer, our friend in my studio. In your studio.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Yes.
What’s up, dude?
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Dude, it’s. It’s. It’s going great. July 1 1st opened up with some serious rain.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I was going to say that’s still going good for you guys over there.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Still going great.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Great.
Yeah. We have had beautiful sunshine, so I’ll take that as well because we already had a lot of rain earlier in this year. So I’m going to. I’m going to take that.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: I was able to go enjoy the summer.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Absolutely.
Sorry, go ahead.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: I just can say this episode, but what were you going to say?
[00:01:18] Speaker B: I was going to just say, yeah, let’s. Let’s get into it.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Let’s dive in. This is a. I mean, I think.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: We’Ve story in the Book of Mormon. Come on, dude.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: If. If Freiburg is to be believed.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Dude, come on. This is. This is the. This is the one story that every kid dreams of getting to give a talk on in primary.
You know, it’s true, dude.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: This is the one. I mean, this is.
For what it’s worth, I think we all love this story, the story of Ammon. And he’s powerful in just about every way. Right? It’s not just that he’s an incredible missionary. He gets to lock people’s arms off, which is kind of gruesome.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: No, it’s so dope.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: But it’s like, I don’t know, there’s just something about that that just speaks to every, like you say, every. Every boy out there thinking what it means to be awesome and a man and just like a hero standing up against the bad guys. And I mean, Ammon. Ammon does it. Protecting the sheep and caring enough to love the people. He’s. He’s just an interesting character, this Ammon.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: It’s so good. Let’s do it.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: And in fact, I’m going to take us down some speculation today, and I just want to get that out right here at the forefront before I go.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think a lot of what we try to do is present unique perspective, and it’s very much grounded in the Bible and what this means or in the book of Mormon, the scriptures, the word of God.
Try not to be very speculative, but. But try to be more informative and kind of open eyes and explain and show.
But what. What I want to dive into today a little bit is not grounded in anything, but what’s. What’s the best way to put it? Like circumstantial evidence, if you will. Like, there are some interesting things that pop up that just make me wonder that I feel are worth exploring and maybe add depth to the story.
But we can’t. We can’t say that that’s how it was or that that’s what it is. I just. I just want to kind of explore this lane a little bit.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Okay. I mean, this is what we do. Anybody.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: This is what we do.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Anybody that’s listened to us more than five minutes realizes, like, this is. This is what we try to understand things better by trying to paint bigger pictures than just the word for word text that is in the scriptures. So don’t be mad at us. But you probably already know what you. You knew what I was when you picked me up. As a wise man once said, or a snake. A snake once said, well, I don’t.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Want to be a snake.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: But. No, but, dude, you knew what I was when you picked me up. Dude, it’s all right to be a snake.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: That was a great. I haven’t seen that in a long time.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: That was so good. All right, let’s see. Let’s hear it.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: Okay, so here. Here it goes. Here it comes. If you’re ready for this, I’m looking at the event. And so, for example, when Ammon comes in and Lamoni is like, here is my daughter. Marry her.
It’s kind of a little bit mind blowing that the king would be doing this.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: And I kind of go a couple different ways on this. One way is Ammon is the son of Mosiah. Mosiah was the king.
And so if here you got the son of a king, then this makes sense in the ancient near eastern context, because that’s what you did. You had political marriages, arranged marriages for political reasons, to try to strengthen and fortify positions. Now, consider this for a second. Lamoni is not a descendant of Laman.
He’s a descendant of Ishmael. And so when you look at the two kingdoms, the Lamanites and the Nephites, who’s got the right to rule? And the big discussion is, the Lamanites believe that Nephite tried to supplant it and steal it from Laman. Laman is the one who should have that? And so it’s either Laman or it’s Nephi, but it’s surely not Ishmael. Right? But yet here you have a descendant of Ishmael who’s ruling in this land, in this kingdom, and his father is a pretty significant king in the land of Nephi. And you think about these guys. They’re branching out, and you look at where the original Lamanites are. The Nephites fled from them, went and established themselves up in the land of Nephi, and then they had to abandon that as well. It feels like the newer groups are spreading, and it’s Ishmael and his family are kind of spreading up and getting more towards the fringes and the borders for the Nephites are. And so if he’s not from one of these main two lines of Laman or Nephi, having his daughter marry a son, a descendant. Excuse me, a son, that would be. No, that’s right. A descendant of Nephi helps legitimize his reign even further, because now he’s got that Nephite claim and his son’s claim, and it can bring in a lot of the strength from the Nephites to kind of help fortify and create a strategic alliance that maybe strengthens his position in the Lamanite kingdom a little bit more. So there’s political reasons behind this, and that’s where I kind of first went with this, thinking about, why would he offer this? At the same time, Ammon does not go into the land of the Lamanites immediately after the reign of the judges. Right. It’s like 14 years after. And who knows how word spreads among the Lamanites. Maybe they knew that he was no longer in power. And. And the other thing is, when Ammon approaches the king, it’s not like he is making a show of who he is. He doesn’t say, oh, by the way, I am the son of Mosiah. I am great. I am. He’s not making those claims. So how would Lamoni know that Ammon is coming from this political position to be making this type of agreement? Right. So maybe. Maybe there’s some different motives behind this. Um, it does say. And so some of this is still kind of grounded in the text. I haven’t gotten to the speculation yet. I’ll. I’ll get there soon, I promise. As we’re setting the stage, though, in chapter 17, when they depart into the wilderness, it says that they depart, and this is verse seven. Nevertheless, they departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and took their swords and their spears and their bows and their arrows and their slings, and this they did, that they might provide food for themselves while in the wilderness.
And so maybe the fact that Ammon is coming with the sword and the type of sword that the son of a king carries might even set him apart for who he is. That without even having to say anything, Lamoni would recognize him for being a man of power, wealth, or position, just based on the fact that he’s carrying his sword.
And I find it kind of interesting that Ammon is. Is defending the flocks with his sword. If. If the king took him prisoner, surely they would have taken his weapons away. And if his sword was of any value, how do we know that Ammon even gets it back to be able to go? And the guys that are coming to scatter the sheep, they’re not coming armed with swords. They’re coming armed with clubs. And. And it sounds to me like a sword would probably be viewed as a superior weapon to. To just a club.
And so there’s. I don’t know. There’s some interesting stuff in there. I wonder if Lamoni is not trying to test the nature or the character of Ammon by offering his daughter just to kind of see what his motives are. Here comes this nephite coming to live with them. Why do you want to come live with us? What is it that you’re after? And, and if you look at.
Let me. Let me say this. It feels like oftentimes we see in others the intentions of ourselves.
Sometimes we just expect people to be honest because we’re honest in nature. Or sometimes we always see a criminal, or we accuse somebody of being something because that’s what we would have done. Or we see in others our own human nature, if that makes sense. And if that’s accurate to say.
When we look at the character of these Lamanites, verse 15, there are many who were indolent people, many of whom would worship idols. And the curse of God had fallen upon them because of the traditions of their fathers. Notwithstanding, the promises, Lord were extended unto them on conditions of righteous. And they talk about these people.
And I wanted to go. Theres another verse that actually describes it a little bit better when it talks about their willingness to get gain by stealing it from other people because they weren’t willing to work for it themselves.
And. And I think about ammon being in this position, surrounded by people that were always looking for the shortcut. And I know that word’s going to resonate with you, Nate. I mean, we’ve been talking about the shortcut a lot.
For the Lamanites, it was all about the shortcut. Who can. I mean, I. The fact that they’re scattering the king’s sheep, hoping that the sheep will wander into their own yards and they can capture him so that they can get it without having to actually earn those sheep or. Or pay for it. They’re always looking for the shortcut. And so to me, when I look at Lamoni offering Ammon a position here, he’s offering Ammon a serious shortcut, because Ammon has no status as a foreigner, whether or not he’s the son of a king. He’s not in nephite territory, and he’s coming into a new nation as an immigrant. He’s got no status, he’s got no wealth. He’s got to work from the ground up. And Lamoni is testing him and offering him a shortcut into the king’s house to maybe even be next in line to see what his intentions are.
Maybe. Maybe it’s more of a test from Lamonis perspective than it is a political strategic alliance. I don’t know. But as I was thinking about this, here comes the speculation. Sorry. This is just such a long way to get to here.
What if Ammon, we remember he fought against the church, and Mosiah represented working hard for your own support, and Mosiah worked for himself.
And right after the end of Mosiah, we have Nihor, who represented the opposite extreme of we want priestcraft and the people to support us so we don’t have to support anybody.
And so my speculation is, what if it wasn’t Ammon that kicked off the movement of the nehors?
And. And the reason why I say this.
Yes, you’ve got a next generation where he’s rebelling against his dad and kind of tearing down everything that his dad does. And this does seem like an opposite thing for his dad.
But where maybe we get a little bit more evidence is the city of Ammonihah. And when it says the city of Ammonihah, it says it’s called after the name of the person that founded it. So it was named after somebody called Ammonite. In Hebrew, the ha ending to a word means towards or to. And it’s not actually part of the name. So Ammonihah would have been founded by a man named Ammon, not necessarily a man named Ammonihah. And we look at the city that was formed, called Ammonihah. It was formed next to or in the land of Melech. In Hebrew, the name Melech means king. And so if you look at Melech as the land of the king or the land of Mosiah, who is land of the king at the time, the king’s family or the king’s line, going back through generations of Nephi’s descendants, who you have this royal family and this. This royal family kind of pushing out and branching out and feeling the responsibility to establish. To create a new city. Ammon would be establishing another city named the city of Ammoniah. And you’ll also notice that after Alma’s going to leave the city of Ammoniah, he goes to another city called the city of Aaron, which is also the name of one of Mosiah’s sons. I don’t think it’s coincidence that you have two cities named after the two sons of.
They were actively seeking to destroy not just the church, but Mosiah, the kingdom, the everything that their parents had stood for. And they’re seeking to rob the freedom of the people.
And these cities were on the fringes. And so what I say is Zarahemla is not right next to where the Lamanites are, but as they start to branch out and build out, they have to go to new land. And establishing these cities closer to the fringes of where the Lamanites are, to where it’s the first city attacked. When the Lamanites come, it suggests that this is a newer city. So the timeline lines up with the city that would have been established by Ammon. Now, in the city of Ammonia, they were all nehors, every one of them? That’s what it says. And so when the city was destroyed, they called it the destruction of the Nehors. So if this city was connected with Ammon, and here’s my speculation, was Ammon a precursor or part of the founder to the Nehor movement? Was it his teachings? Was it his pushing against the church that created this movement that gets Nehor established and a big part of what Nehors are fighting for. Sorry, Nate. I’ll let you jump.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: No, just to make sure. You’re saying before he went out and did his mission, you’re saying when he was young and rebellious and a knucklehead.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yes. I’m wondering if before, in his rebellions, this started the movement, because Nehor comes in the first year of the reign of the judges. And for perspective, Ammon’s repentance and Alma’s experience happens about nine years before this.
And so I’m wondering if nehors are capitalizing on because they actively sought to tear down the church. And one thing that’s interesting about what Nehor was teaching is he said there is no need for repentance and that there is no sin.
Now go back to how we describe Ammon. In Ammon, it says that he was the vilest of sinners.
Why would you be the vilest of sinners? And if you start to look at that theology, if you don’t believe you ever have to repent and that there’s no sin or consequence for sin, then why not? To me, it would make sense that being the vilest of sinners would fit with the mindset of there is no need for repentance. And it doesn’t matter what you do, you can do whatever you’re going to do.
The other thing about the knee whores is the shortcut. And this is where I kind of want to take this back in. And this is where it’s going to kind of resonate a little bit. And it is what it is, right? This is speculation. It might not be the case. It might be. But I’ll tell you why I’m going here.
If. If this movement that was all about being supported by others and. And the priests didn’t have to support themselves, the others are going to take care of me. Start looking at the shortcuts that are offered to Ammon first. When Lamoni says, here is my daughter, and here’s an easy way out to where you’re going to be supported and you’re never going to have to work again. If this is resonating with the movement that, that Ammon was key in creating, this would be an opportunity for him to show that he has truly repented from that movement and then take it again. When he runs into Lamonis father and he beats his father in a duel, and he’s got the point where he can slay his father, and his father says, I will give you everything up to half my kingdom if you let me live.
This is one more temptation. This is one more offer that if Ammon was part of this mindset that creates this movement, would truly kind of check up and see has he turned from that past, or is he going to look for that shortcut where he can gain that kingdom, he can gain that wealth. And rejecting both instances, to me is showing a new creature, a new birth, if we follow that mindset. But again, this is highly speculative. I don’t know.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: All right, let me add some. Let me add some thoughts to this.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Please do.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: One to add kind of some legitimacy to this. It does make sense why the sons of Messiah were willing to forego their potential political kingdoms and go serve missionary work. Because in theory, that would be part of the repentance process, right. They would have to be making amends for the damage that they caused.
Where alma the younger, he got to just get dragged through hell and tormented for three days. Right. He kind of paid for his sins. He atoned, I guess, if you will, for his bad doings by getting knocked out and just. Just dragged over the coals for a few days.
The sons of Messiah didn’t.
But you do actually see a lot of similar things that we can touch on later. This isn’t part of my point, but it’s funny, because when you do watch, actually, what happens with ammon going there and everybody passing out and coming back and being like, hey, I saw God, and I know it’s true. It’s familiar enough to him. But anyways, the sons of Messiah didn’t do that. They didn’t get their sins dredged back up and tormented that way.
So it would make sense that they’re like two to make amends. We need to go back out and undo the destruction that we did, and then it would, I guess, make sense that this would be the way to do it. Second of all, when it talks about Ammon being the vilest of sinners, and like you said, if we relate that to trying to destroy the kingdom of goddess, we see how good Ammon is with his words. We see how incredible he is at building bridges for good or for evil. You could see that, right? He is so good at reading a room. He is so good at winning over large groups of powerful people.
It would make sense that he would maybe be.
We kind of talked about in show preponderance, Aaron isn’t necessarily that dude. Right. You don’t see Aaron going in and being the statesman, persuasive, charming, you know, talkative person where Ammon, you watch him come in, and every step along the way, he is perfectly making his social moves, that you could absolutely see him being the ringleader of starting off movements that could be really, really destructive.
What a good person. I guess to win back over to the right side. But, you know, I guess I’m just saying to add a little bit of ammo to what you’re saying here, those things immediately popped in mind. That would add some credence to that.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to build on that, what you’re saying, because you look at what, what did the anti Nephi Lehis, who were led by Ammon do when. When they are feeling guilty because of how much murder they committed, they go to the opposite extreme by burying their weapons and. And never wanting to commit another murder again. Take that same act and go back to Ammon and his brothers if. If they were seeking financial gain and support of the people.
And what do they do? They give up even the right to be kings, their sacrifice of the throne that was legitimately theirs. This is the first time we see this in 400 years of history, and we will never see this again in Book of Mormon history. This is singular an event where they give up the throne, but it is very similar to what you see with the anti Nephi Lehis who were led by them. It is almost like the anti Nephi Lehis are looking at them as an example and saying, let’s learn from them. What can we do to give up our poison? Just like they gave up theirs to kind of go along with what you pointed out.
It’s. It’s like they gave that up before they even had the chance to reject it again. And giving it up is one thing, but. But as you know, sometimes an addict or sometimes someone who struggles with it, you can give it up once, but you. You stumble down the road, right? And this is an opportunity for Ammon to prove again and again that this is something that he’s willing to walk away from. And it’s interesting, because we’re going to see later on that these people are led in battle, and it’s not Ammon that’s leading him. It’s Helaman. Where. Where is Ammon at this point? Or where is, you know, is he truly just melting into this servant role where he keeps saying, no, I want to be at the bottom of the pile? And why does he keep wanting to be at the bottom of the pile? Was part of this motivation because he was seeking to put himself at the top of a different pile, and he needs to vindicate himself by always being at the bottom. It just adds some depth to the story. If that’s the case, I mean, it.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: It would make sense. It definitely adds something to think about. I.
All of that checks out in my mind, but I get it. We on this podcast try to never be too definitive about our speculation and opinion, so please don’t call us heretics.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Well, and I’m not worried about that. I just want to be clear.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: I am always.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: When I state this is. I want people to say, okay, this is because I am being clear about when. I don’t know, or when I’m saying this, is what I think versus this is what I know. I want to make that distinction. So when I say I know this, sure, it resonates.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: All right. Yeah, I think everybody gets it. Whatever.
Call us heretics. I don’t care. Hi@weeklydeepdive.com. we don’t, we’ve been called worse at this point.
Yeah.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: So it’s okay.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Can we get into the story yet or not?
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, we can get into the story. And, you know, you bring up their personalities. You talked about Aaron being a little bit different than Ammon, and to me, but it’s interesting because Ammon, not Ammon, Aaron is the one that’s supposed to be the next king. So who’s older?
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: That’s the question. Right. And Mosiah asked the people who should be king, and they all vote for Aaron. Why are they not voting for Ammon? You look at how charismatic he is. Look at how emotionally intelligent he is. Look at how he is at speaking to the people. Why do the people want Aaron and not ammonite? And I think Ammon is extremely emotional. And we see this. Ammon gets carried away and lets his emotions carry him away to where he passes out. Just thinking about how happy he is or how much he’s very much, I don’t know, emotionally intelligent almost seems like an underscore on this, but he’s very emotional. He’s an emotional mandeh. You don’t see that same emotion with Aaron. He’s very logical.
He’s very direct, and he’s almost this calming, stabilizing influence for Ammon.
And so as a king, you do want that stable, that calm, not this emotionally charged person who’s just going to run out and make a brash decision.
But it seems to be the right decisions for him. He’s led by the spirit. He’s an interesting leader. I think Aaron’s the older brother, but I think Ammon’s the more dynamic of the two.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Okay, can I speculate a little bit? I should, I honestly need just a little button that I can push that just has, when it’s, like speculation or something.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: The speculatron.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: I also, oh, man, this one, this one is gonna, this one might get us some emails. I don’t think that Ammon looked anything like Freeberg’s picture. I don’t think he looked like a muscle man. He man. I don’t think he looked like just this ripped bodybuilder wielding the sword and looked crazy rad. I think that Ammon’s entire strength was through his persuasion, through his diplomacy through his negotiating. I think that he was always thinking in very logical, but also, like you said, emotional. Like he was very, very in tune with reading the room where I think Aaron probably looked a little bit more like the Freiburg picture. And if people were voting on a king, they probably weren’t voting necessarily. They probably weren’t wise enough as a group of people, just because I don’t trust groups of people. They probably weren’t thinking, who is the best statesman here? Who is the best?
Who would negotiate the best with our enemies? And I say this because I look at the world around us now. A lot of times, a lot of people want their leader to be the person they feel like can protect them, right? The person that will be on the front lines with them. If we consider time and place. It would make a lot more sense to me that a group of people would much rather have a dude out there that looked like the Freiburg pictures, that could wield a sword, that, by the way, probably wasn’t the greatest negotiator. That was just like, hey, look, I’ll protect you. I’m going to say it like it is. I’m not, I’m not going to talk down to you. I’m not out trying to pull moves behind the scenes. I’ll, you know, I’m, I’m not saying he even campaigned, but I guess I’m just saying if, if a group of people were to look at those two, to add to your point, it also makes sense that they would maybe be looking at the person like, hey, who’s going to lead us and protect us? Who is going to, who’s going to be the person that we can feel safe behind? And I do think that this, I wanted to bring this up because I actually do feel like this adds a lot more depth to the story of ammon actually being the one out lopping off arms. I’m not saying that the dude wasn’t strong or that he, I mean, he, he very well could have also looked like the Freiburg picture. I guess all I’m saying is it makes more sense to me that his art of negotiation, his persuasiveness, his in touch, his empathy, his sympathy, his people skills were his greatest strength and not necessarily his bodybuilding strengths, where Aaron almost kind of comes across a lot more in the text as the probably physically empowered, the maybe not most persuasive dude in the entire world. Again, as we read in the text, he kind of comes into town and he’s like, check it. And everybody’s like, oh, no, you’re going to jail, right? So I don’t know. Do you see what I’m saying? So that’s a little bit of my speculation, which would make sense why a group of people might want eren to be their king, maybe more than his younger brother financially.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: And I think only wanting to add a little bit onto this, which I would say Aaron or, excuse me, Ammon, as a son of Mosiah and as a son of Benjamin, is a son of Mosiah. Mosiah, Benjamin and Mosiah all had to wield the sword and fight, right? To defend their nation. I think, honestly, Ammon would have had some training, would have had some skill. I’m not just to your point, to your point. I don’t think he. I don’t think he’s an Arnold Schwarzenegger out on the field just squashing ends. Right? Like, it’s not. It’s. It’s. It’s not the Freiburg, like, painting that we have. I don’t think he looks so much different than anyone else to where you would look at him and just be like, oh, like you say, maybe Aaron was more imposing as a figure.
I tend to agree with you on that.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: I’m just trying to put all the pieces together. And by the way, we do know Mosiah, Benjamin and Mosiah had to fight with the sword.
It doesn’t say in the text that the suns did, does it?
I mean, they didn’t.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: And so I guess aside from Ammon’s encounter with robbers.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Exactly. Which, by the way, too, to be fair, might then lead us to assume. Okay, cool. Maybe he had some, but it wasn’t the same wartime issues that Mosiah, Benjamin Mosiah, it says in the text, had to fight with the sword to defend themselves. And again, this is all just speculation. I’m just trying to better understand the human beings in the stories and try to use as much information from the text to try to paint that bigger picture. That’s all.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: I appreciate it. I like it.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: Which I do think adds to the miracle, by the way, of potentially, of Ammon. I mean, even if he did look like the Freiburg picture and he’s out fighting off hordes of knuckleheads with clubs is still an amazing, amazing thing. If he was also definitely more of the statesman of the family and was out doing this, then you can see why when they bring all of these arms to the kingdom, the king’s going, wait, that dude just did this. I think that that would also lend a lot more, you know, information and context. To the king, being as blown away by this as he was.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I’m going to go into verse 18. It says now, Ammon being the chief among them, or rather, he did administer unto them, and he departed from them after having blessed them according to their several stations, having imparted the word of God unto them or administered unto them before his departure. Thus they took their several journeys throughout the land. And it’s interesting that Ammon’s taking this role on. Ammon’s the one that’s administering to his brothers. Ammon is the one that’s giving them a blessing before they go. Ammon’s the one that’s almost kind of acting like the father figure in the absence of Mosiah before they begin their trip. And you’re like, wait a second. Aaron was the one that was pegged to be the king. Aaron was the one that people wanted to have in this spot. Why is Ammon all of a sudden rising up to be this. This character? And as I’m reading this, I’m going through this. What it reminds me of is Hiram and Joseph Smith, because I look at Hiram’s character, and. And I think people looked at him very similar to Aaron. He was a little bit older, more mature. I don’t think he was nearly as emotional as Joseph Smith. I think Joseph Smith was a lot more emotional, a lot more brash, a lot more creative, a lot more trusting in the Lord. And I think there’s reasons the Lord chose Joseph. But Joseph looked up to Hiram. Hiram was the older brother, but Joseph was the leader, and Hiram looked to Joseph for inspiration. But Hiram was very much a stabilizing influence for Joseph Smith in his life and kept him anchored where you. You’ve got that interesting dynamic between the emotional leader and the intelligent leader, and there’s balance. I’m not saying that. That Joseph wasn’t intelligent. He was extremely intelligent. But they have different strengths, and they complement each other so well. And this brother brotherhood, brothership, brother, this pair of brothers, I see an interesting dynamic there, and I wonder if Joseph didn’t relate to them as well as he’s thinking about his brother Hiram, as he’s translating this. I don’t. I don’t know. You know, I like it.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: Should we keep going?
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah. There’s one last person, I think that we need to mention, and to me, this is the wizard behind the curtain, and that’s Mosiah. And he doesn’t really show up here in these stories, but it says that the reason why Ammon wasn’t slain and they said is because they knew not that the Lord had promised Mosiah that he wouldn’t be. And it says it was according to the faith of Mosiah.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: That’s right. I remember that specifically reading it, too.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: And so the impact of Mosiah, who’s. Who’s, for all we know, dead at this point, right? Yet he still has this far reaching influence, and it is because of his faith that this mission is as successful as it is, just the impact and the reach of somebody even far beyond the grave. I mean, you see Mosiah’s influence through this and what a great man he was. I just feel like it’s probably worth tipping my head to him a little bit.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: Yep, I like it.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: All right. I mean, we’ve got the story of ammon slaying the arms. I think we’re all familiar with it, but maybe we need a different take on it, a different perspective. Or maybe hear a little bit of bros of Smith’s description of how this all goes down.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: You mean the book of Mormon? Unofficial chat. GPT translation for Gen Z.
Let’s see. How about Alma, chapter 17?
There was a great one in here.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Verse five. Was it?
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Yeah, dude.
But it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows for these homies. They went through some tough times, like being hungry, thirsty, tired. They had to really grind to get through it all, you know? The best one was. Was when? Oh, yeah, in chapter or verses 31 and 32. So this ammon was talking to his homies, and he was like, yo, let’s go find those sheep and bring them back to the watering hole so we don’t get killed by the king. So Ammon’s friends were like, bet. And they followed him real quick, and they found the king’s sheep and brought them back to the watering hole. But then some dudes tried to come and scatter the sheep again. But Ammon was like, nah, let’s surround the sheep so they can’t run away. I’ll take care of these dudes. So Ammon’s friends did what he said, and Ammon went to fight the dudes that were trying to scatter the sheep. There were a lot of them. So good. So anyways. Oh, yeah, chapter 36. But Ammon was like, I got this. And he started throwing rocks at them with the sling.
He was so good. Yeah. That he killed some of them. They were amazed. This is great, dude. We just. Every once in a while, we just need to know how AI thinks. Gen Z is the dumbest people in the entire world. So this is good. Thank you, AI. I don’t believe that, Gen Z, but I’m sorry that AI thinks so.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: That verse, that first verse. First five.
Can you go back in that?
[00:36:05] Speaker B: You know I can.
It wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows, that verse.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: That’s the one. That’s the one. That’s the one. Because it reminded me of something I wanted to bring up.
[00:36:14] Speaker B: It wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows for these homies.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: They.
Okay, this goes back to something we talked about last week.
I believe we talked about last week. If not, then I feel bad. The hurry up and wait, right? When we get to Alma and he went to Ammoniah, got rejected. He was on his way to Aaron. And the Lord says, go back because they’re. They’re going to destroy it. And he hurries up, right? Like he doesn’t even take time to pack food. He shows up starving, not eating for several days because he’s in that big of a hurry. But then he hangs out at Amulek’s house for many days.
And you see that same type of thing here with these guys. They’ve been begging for years to get out and go. And as soon as. As soon as Mosiah gives them a thumbs up, they run off. And then they stop in the wilderness for many days. And it’s that hurry up and wait type of thing. And you’re like, well, wait a second. Weren’t they so anxious? Why did they stop and spend so much time in the wilderness? And I think there’s some significance to that. We need to be quick to hear the word of the Lord, to answer to the word of the Lord, and be willing to go and do whatever it is right away. But just because we respond right away doesn’t mean that we have to do a rush job or that we go in unprepared or that we mess it up. And I think that time in the willingness to prepare and kind of understand what they were getting into, as much hurry as they felt it was important to the success of the journey, if that makes sense.
And I think that kind of feeds into the context. I mean, in that wilderness, it says you’re going to suffer a lot.
And I think ammon is taking that and using it to kind of build his plan going forward. Hey, these people, this is not going to be easy.
Maybe going in there and telling them outright that they’re wrong is not the best approach.
Maybe I need to kind of just ease into this and serve them and see where it comes. And I think that’s where Ammon shows his intelligence and his leadership. Right. And we kind of highlighted those differences between Aaron and Ammon.
But, yeah, that’s, that’s there.
So, yeah, we, we get the story in this story, something that didn’t quite show through with the chat GPT, I think, is something that you’ve pointed out, Nate, with as intelligent as Ammon is, you can see in him thinking ahead, the end game, it’s always about that for Ammon. He is two steps ahead because he’s thinking about what next, not what now. And you see it when the men came and scattered the flocks, verse 29. And they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now, when Ammon saw this, his heart was swollen within him for joy. And you’re like, wait, what? Who, who feels joy and rejoicing at this is my chance at a moment when everything just went south. And that’s because he’s not focusing on the problem, he’s focusing on the solution. And he’s looking at this ahead.
And something you said so well in the pre show prep is when it comes time to prepare the king’s horses. Ammon knew what he was doing.
He didn’t go in and tell the king. He wasn’t the first one in there to show him all the arms and, like, brag about himself. And, I mean, Nate, you probably state this a lot better than what I.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: No, I agree. I’m with you. I think that sometimes you read this, the text would make it seem like, I mean, you know, these are all like really big missionary scriptures, right? This is some of the. This is how we should all be doing the missionary work, and this is how to be, serve and be persuasive. And I agree with all that, by the way. But to think that Ammon didn’t know what he was doing and the dramatic effect that was basically taking place from start to finish here, it’s a naive thought.
One of Ammon’s skills is he was a really great people person, right?
The text would lead us to believe his greatest skill was knowing how to work a room, knowing how to build bridges, by the way, knowing how to negotiate, how to win people over.
When he went and chopped off all the arms, first of all, he was, you know, he was stoked and he’s, you know, he was thinking, this is definitely going to open some doors for me. And so when the dudes brought the arms back, it would have. He absolutely knew. This doesn’t look nearly as great if I’m in there taking all of it, would have still looked great, right? If he walked in, being the one carrying the arms, like, check out what I did. But it changes the.
It could have almost changed the relationship between him and the king, where the king might have been afraid of him at that point, and the king might have been like, whoa. Like, oh, you’re. You’re the dude that’s going to be my greatest warrior. But instead, you know, Ammon’s like, and what’s going to make it look even better is if I’m out here doing the work that probably no one wants to be doing, which is feeding the animals, they probably don’t smell super great. I’m going to be cleaning up the. You know, I’m going to go out. I’m going to go out and clean the restrooms right, while the governor is. I’m just saying he absolutely knew how. How dramatic of these things were going to be, by the way. I’m not saying that in a negative way whatsoever. I’m saying, bravo, young man, for doing this in such a way that it gave the king a time to look at that thing and really probably go through a lot of emotional distress and a lot of questions. He probably had to unpack a lot of that, and it was probably better that Ammon wasn’t there while he was trying to unpack all of this, the servants could say what they needed to say. Everybody was able to kind of go like, okay, here’s what it is. So that, by the way, when they did call Ammon back in, Ammon could be like, what, me? Oh, I’m just out. I’m just out doing what I said I was gonna do. Oh. Oh, they brought you these arms that I chopped off. Oh, it’s like. I know. Is that why you’re calling me in again? Please don’t misunderstand. This is a negative thing. I think that not. I think that knowing how to really impact a room and work with people and the dramatic effect, I think that’s an amazing skill and gift, by the way. I’m not even gonna say skill. I’m gonna think that that’s a gift that was absolutely needed for this situation. We’re talking a lot about instruments and tools this week, right in the come, follow me. It’s like the first thing that’s talked about, I’m like, aaron is a hammer, right? Aaron is a tuba. Where. Where ammon might be a violin. Ammon might be a precision saw, right? Like a scalpel. You need different instruments in different situations, and if you need a beautiful, melodic, emotional solo, you usually don’t have the tuba playing it. Right. So it doesn’t say. That doesn’t mean that a tuba is a bad instrument.
It just means that maybe in this situation, the Lord chose to use the right instrument. The Lord chose to use a scalpel. The Lord chose to use a, you know, a little bit more of a delicate, deliberate tool, knowing he’s, he. This is, this is a pivotal catalyst for really winning over multiple kingdoms at this point. He can’t just send in the hammer.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: And, which, by the way, Moroni, I almost see more as the hammer than the scalpel. Right? And yet Moroni, Captain Moroni, is still emotionally charged like ammon is. But again, different tools for different times. And it’s fascinating to see how the Lord has the right person for the right time and uses them to their strength. So we talked about this with Peter and Paul.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: It’s funny you said that. It was literally the two examples. I was going to bring up Peter and Paul, and I was gonna bring up Helaman and Pahoran. Like, you do have the juxtaposition, by the way, how great is it that you could have so many of these incredible people serving together at the same time? Like, you could have. You said it earlier, even when you brought up both Aaron and Ammon. It’s like this is a pattern that we see all throughout the scriptures, as you see kind of the physical arm with the people arm or the leader or the minister. Right. You see the administration and the ministry a lot kind of in combination. And Peter and Paul are a great example.
[00:45:11] Speaker A: And even Mormon picks up on this, right, when he says that he used guile to trick the king into listening to him, which I want to get back to that point here in a second. But, I mean, it’s even something that doesn’t escape Mormon as he’s writing this out. Right?
Boy, when you were describing Ammon and I was thinking about, you know, each arm he’s lopping off is almost getting him more and more excited. And as emotionally as this guy is, I almost want to see an updated Freiburg painting of this guy smiling like a maniac while whacking arms off. He should just like each one, making him more happy. This will make me even better.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Yes. We should see if AI will give us one where he’s actually beating the other dudes with the lopped off arms. Is it too far?
Too far? All right, too far. I might edit that out. No, it’s not.
To refocus this in back of a spiritual manner, even look at the relationship with Jesus and John the Baptist, though, is like, you really kind of have the rugged. You know, you have a rugged, manly man out in the desert, wherein the. Wearing the gnarly whatever it is, like the goat skin clothes. You have the rugged. Maybe not necessarily people. I mean, he was very much ministering to the people, too. Don’t misunderstand. But it’s like you can almost even just look at the two and go where Christ was really the soft spoken, the compassionate, the people leader. It’s like even he had a companion to be, you know, to be. To be countering that. You have Aaron and Moses. You have a lot of these. You have a lot of history of dynamic duos. The dynamic duos, where they. Where their skills perfectly play off of each other.
That was it. That’s my thought.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: Like. Like Jason and Nate.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Yeah, like Jason and Nate. Which. 01:00 a.m. i. The enforcer.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: I don’t know.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Is it just because I can actually own guns and you’re in Europe? Like, what is the. I’ll be the enforcer. America, baby.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: You know, and sometimes it’s. Sometimes it’s even more powerful when they actually switch roles, when. When the. When the enforcer becomes the scalpel and the scalpel becomes the enforcer. Right. I mean, look at Christ when he’s not pulling punches, talking about the Pharisees, and you’re like, oh, it almost hits harder.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: You’re. You’re right. And that’s why, again, like, with John the Baptist in Christ, it’s not the exact same, because Christ is the perfection of both, both the minister and the administer. So he does embody both. But I’m even, like, at Christ’s baptism, I just love that he made it a point, and we’ve brought it up a million times that he made it the point to go, it is imperative that you and I both do this together. Salvation is you and I working together. And so that’s the only reason Peter and Paul are probably the better, you know, example of what it is that we’re talking about. More apples to apples.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: But is there something to be said about these dynamic duels? Because we just came out of Alma and amulek, which, again, is another powerful duo. I mean, we’re talking about Joseph and Hyrum, but also, look at Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, or look at.
It’s just interesting, these pairs that we have and these pairings.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Well, and it just goes back to the idea that the Lord knows his instruments, and very much the touch of the master’s hand is a real thing, like our master can really take something that even the world might look at as worthless and be like, no, I’m going to show how I can use this for a beautiful purpose and how I can use this instrument for my work and my purpose. And in doing so, consecrate the weaknesses of this thing, or maybe take the thing that the world might not see as beauty and show you how beautiful of a thing this is. And so I think that it’s. It’s the mixture and the bigger picture of the Lord knowing how to use a tool in the most perfect way that that tool can be used to better build a kingdom, to better serve.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: A purpose and to kind of tip my hat to your world a little bit. One of the. One of the things I enjoy most in music, honestly, is, is the distortion of electric guitar and then mixing in the. The melodic harmonies of a violin and the two kind of going in with each other, or when you have all that noise and all of a sudden just stops and just a moment of silence, the loud versus the silent, it’s just. It’s interesting to have these contrasts that go with each other.
Something else I wanted to point out on this. I wonder, when the king sends ammon to go tend the flocks. Just so we’re all clear on this, and we’ve talked about this before, in ancient Israel, at least, and in the ancient Near east, tending the flocks was not a position of honor.
And so when we talk about contrast, for example, how do you go from here? I want you to marry my daughter to here. I want you to tend my flocks.
Go back to. In ancient Israel, it was always the youngest son’s responsibility, because as soon as you were old enough, you were out. You didn’t have to. This was the job that no one liked to do. David got stuck with the flocks, whereas all the brothers got to go out to. To war. And, I mean, you look at that, maybe being in the safety of the flocks is safer than going to war. But then again, David’s out there fighting bears and. And lions and whatnot, right?
You. You don’t get to stay at home. You have to wander out where the herds go, and depending on the year and how much rainfall there is, how far they need to go to forage, and you have to camp out there for long times. You’re not with your friends.
It wasn’t exactly the best of jobs. It honestly was the worst of jobs.
And not only was it the worst of jobs, to compound this, the king killed the last shepherds.
This is almost like sending someone to the front. This is like David sending Uriah to the front lines and then withdrawing his support.
And I don’t know if. If the king was offended, the ammon wouldn’t marry his daughter. And he’s like, oh, you’re not good enough for my daughter. Then here I’m going to send you out to a job that I know you’re going to fail at, where I can kill you. Or if it’s just the fact that this is a nephite and they didn’t have a lot of respect for him anyways, being a nephite coming in or what the deal is. But it is kind of interesting to kind of put that into the perspective of things. What the king was sending Ammon to do was not a mission to succeed at.
And maybe there’s a lesson in here for us when we get the short straw, we have to do something that maybe we don’t look at as glamorous or glorious yet look at how much the Lord consecrated the worst of jobs for Ammon. And this becomes maybe the crowning moment of the. Of the Book of Mormon, the exciting story for all the boys to look at and be like, wow, this was the coolest story ever. And it all started because he was willing to do the job that nobody else wanted to do. I mean, he was the. Damon was the toilet cleaner of the Book of Mormon, and he was happy doing it. And he looked at his opportunity to clean the toilets as his chance at bringing the gospel to all of these people. There’s a lesson in there, right? There’s a lesson in that.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: Do you think that this was the first time the king had killed the shepherd? Some of his shepherds or those that were supposed to tend the flocks? Because this is like a big deal to everybody in town. If you notice throughout the entire chapters, this continues to get brought up over.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: And over and over.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: Like, is the king, did he feel like he was being punished because he killed the servants that let the floss gather? And then when it goes out into town, people are like, I wonder if this is actually punishment for when the king killed those.
It’s like the king killing the shepherds previous to Ammon coming in feels like a kind of singular event because everybody around it impacted them. To me, it’s like, I guess I want to understand why that is was such an impactful thing. Because had Lamoni just been killing the shepherds all the time, that didn’t do a good job.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: No one would want to be a shepherd?
[00:53:34] Speaker B: Well, not only that, but I just don’t think people would be talking about it as much or caring about, you know, I mean, it’s like, if that was just kind of par for the course, I. It’s. It’s so funny that throughout these chapters, everybody’s thoughts immediately keep coming back to almost that singular moment of when the king finally got up and including the king himself, where it’s like, was this a thing? Where it was. Lamoni had finally gotten so mad that this was happening that he’s like, fine, I’m killing these dudes, and I’m setting a new precedent. And then Ammon came in right after. Or is this. The flocks weren’t really getting scattered all that often. And then it happened that one time kind of right before Ammon came in, and the king was like, well, I don’t. I’m. Emotionally, maybe he was just like, you know what? No way. And then he kills the dudes. All I know is that this. Him killing the shepherds before Ammon feels like a singular event because it is on everybody’s minds, including the king and the servants and the people in town.
Maybe even. I’m trying to remember if it was even some servants in the house that brought it up, but so many people brought this up. I guess I wonder if they’re. What the point of that being so on the top of everybody’s mind was.
[00:54:43] Speaker A: I think you’re right. I think it was a fairly new approach, and I think it was a very recent approach. I don’t think it happened that long before to. For it to be as fresh as what you’re saying. Right. And everybody to instantly make that connection.
I I’m. Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: I just. I guess it’s. I find it intriguing. I don’t know what it’s supposed to mean, other than if this was one of those things where, again, everything happens for a reason, and it was important that Ammon came in right after that because of how afraid everybody else was to go do this job, you know? I guess I wonder if it’s just a setup for Ammon being able to come in and being like, look at this awesome opportunity I have to just nail this one well.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: And it plays so much into the Old Testament world, because in the Old Testament is specifically psalms 82, when it says, how long will you continue to judge unrighteously?
How long will you let the widows suffer? How long are you going to praise the. You know, unrighteous judgment is a major theme in the Old Testament.
And that’s really what’s happening here, Lamoni. What kind of kingship, what kind of leader kills the ones that are defending the sheep and lets the robbers go free?
And really, it’s the one that is taking the easy way out. We talk about shortcuts. Who’s harder to punish?
I mean, these guys I have right here in my house, I can go punish them. I can go hit them. I can do whatever I want to them, that’s easy.
But to actually try to find out who was responsible and try to take the time to investigate who did what and hold them accountable for what they did. So you have some flawed justice, and the king is responsible for administering justice in his kingdom. And here you have a king that is doing it the wrong way. He’s showing some serious weakness, and he’s judging wrong. He’s letting the sinners prevail. And you go back to the. The character of the people and the nature of the people, how the king goes. So often, that’s how the people go. And if you’ve got a people that are just taking the easy way out and trying to take abuse, it’s because the king’s letting them, because he’s taking the easy way out and not holding the right people accountable to where there’s incentive to do that. And so ammon coming and fixing it. And what’s he doing to fix it? He’s holding the actual people that are scattering the sheep accountable.
He is administering justice to the ones that are breaking the law and saving the lives of the ones who didn’t. He’s a set, a savior to those. And you talk about the word of God being quick and powerful and two edged sword, but it’s on one hand to condemn, but on the other hand to save. And Ammon is embodying this. He is holding the wicked accountable. And by doing so, his sword is literally saving the lives of the others that were not.
So. Interesting dynamics going with that.
[00:57:48] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:57:50] Speaker A: Um. Let’s get to trying to think of what would be most important to focus on.
[00:57:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we. We got time to talk about maybe one more key thing here.
[00:57:59] Speaker A: I I think, you know, we get to them passing out and the city coming to see what was going on. I. You know, I think there’s two last things I want to hit.
One is being the guile. And when Mormon says, thus with guile, ammon, he’s being wise but innocent. Trick the king into. And what did he actually trick the king into doing when Lamoni says, I will believe all your words. It almost sounds like he’s tricking him into believing the message that he’s sharing. He’s tricking him into being baptized.
And I want to correct that. And at this point, I’m not going in assumptions or speculation. I’m going to go into the facts of the matter and just kind of state this one.
The word the ammon uses when he says, the king says whatever you want, and he says, will you hearken unto my words?
The word hearken, if you go into the Old Testament and you look it up, and wherever it occurs, occurs as the english translation of the Hebrew word shemade. And if you look up the Hebrew word shema, it means literally to hear intelligently or to consider.
So what did Ammon actually trick Lamoni into doing? It wasn’t tricking him into believing. It wasn’t tricking him into being converted. What he did was he tricked him into hearing him out. So he didn’t just answer directly the question. Let me provide you with a little bit of context. Will you listen intelligently and consider the words that I am giving to you and make your own decision off of it? That’s what Ammon tricked the king into doing, is actually just listening, reasoning, and arriving to his own conclusion. And I think that’s an important distinction to make with, with how Ammon approaches this missionary work.
We’ve got a few chapters here, and so I think I. Maybe the last one that’s worth kind of hitting to highlight is towards the end when Lamoni misses the feast of his father and his father’s upset, he has that exchange. And I’m going to fast forward through all of these events and for sake of time, and just focus on the one woman that.
That didn’t pass out among all the servants.
[01:00:19] Speaker B: Abish.
[01:00:20] Speaker A: Abish.
[01:00:21] Speaker B: She’s the best, dude.
[01:00:23] Speaker A: Abish.
[01:00:24] Speaker B: I’m all in.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: And it’s interesting because in the Book of Mormon, we keep hearing the nephite perspective all the time. This is one of the most fascinating stories because it takes the curtain off behind what’s happening in the lamanite lands. And in the lamanite lands, you have a guy that had visions and was converted to the Lord because of his visions.
And Abish and this family of believers, even among the Lamanites, these things happen just like Lehi’s led out of the Jerusalem and saved. The Lord is saving his people regardless of where they are, if they turn to him. And I think that’s an important distinction to make. But the name Abish and I’m glad you remembered it, and I’m glad you pointed it out. In the Old Testament, you see a lot of av names. And Av in Hebrew means father. And so Abimelech, my father is king, Melek is king. Like we discussed, Abish is my father is man. And so this is like saying son of man, my father is a man. And where a lot of them, Abi, Jonah or Abi, a lot of times like my father is God, or the son of my father is referring to Christ or Jehovah as being the God. And I am his son. He is the ruler, he is the reigner, he is the God. And in this case, the guy that had the vision and believed names his daughter. My father is a man. And I almost wonder if the connection here is Christ is the son of man. This is like a son of man title. And the significance of son of man is that God go back to the abrahamic covenant, always covenanted to his people, that he would be born and be a man here on earth. God is a man. God became like us so that we could become like him. And what more powerful name than that? And the whole purpose of the story, when, when Lamoni believes he has a vision and he sees Christ being born as a man, and when his wife has her experience, she sees Christ being born as a man. And this is Jehovah, the great spirit, the God. And they’re being born, and he is being born here on earth to fulfill the covenant he made with Abraham to pay this price.
The whole purpose is this idea that God will become man to save us, the atonement. That’s the point. And so I look at the story of this man who saw and believed, did he see the same things that Lamoni saw? The same thing that Lamoni’s wife saw? The same thing, which, by the way, is what Lehi saw, what Nephi saw, the same thing that any of the people see that turned to the Lord is the ability to see their savior. This fulfillment of this covenant, this promise that he would be born here on earth to atone for the sins of mankind, the same covenant with Adam and Eve, the same covenant with Noah, the same with Abraham, and the same here in the Book of Mormon. And so I find some significance in that name, if that makes any sense, or if that isn’t too much of a rant.
[01:03:25] Speaker B: I don’t think it’s too much of a rant. And even as a very subtle kind of her story arc in this at least has some very loose similars to a type of Christ. Which is. Right. She’s so excited to come and tell the world this great news. I’m so excited to go and thinks that this will be the thing that really kind of helps because she had already had a conversion, right? She’s like, this is going to be the thing that finally helps everybody else see. She goes out into the world and what immediately happens, like, they twisted. They twist it immediately to be the negative thing. And it’s like the gangs almost rise up to be like, we need to come and we need to fight against this thing. And she’s just sad, right? She’s just like, wait, no, that’s like, I’m giving you the. I’m giving you a sign. I’m giving you the best news. I’m here to show you how great of a thing this is. And the people just rebel against it immediately, which is just like, what a bummer she must have been. And you could tell she was so sad. She was just like, oh, no, you guys are totally misunderstanding how great this is.
[01:04:33] Speaker A: And speaking of dynamic duos, look at her paired with Lamoni’s wife, who am and says, such great faith, I haven’t even seen among the nephites. And it’s kind of cool that you have this nod to these women in the scriptures.
[01:04:48] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I think they are a highlight of this story for me and how awesome they are. And hopefully we would be wrong not to highlight how incredible they are in this story.
[01:05:07] Speaker A: Not just them, but look at the significance of Rahab, look at the significance of Ruth, look at the significance of these women in the Old Testament stories and this idea. Elijah, as great as he is, yet he’s great because of the widow of Tishba. Like the relationship and what happens in that story. And there’s just an interesting interplay. You’ve got Jesus and as great as he is, but then you counterbalance that with Mary and some of her stories, and you have some of that dynamic duo with Mary and Martha. Even that you see that, I don’t know, it feels like the Bible has been very centric to males, and it has. But at the same time, there’s a lot of these interesting colorings, flavors, power in the story, that this is never meant just to be a book about men doing manly things. This was a book about the children of God. And there’s value. And oftentimes the sex of the female sex is left out or ignored, but yet they become the powerful ones that are brought back. It’s often the underdog, the ignored one that comes in and finds its way to the heart of the story. And really what makes that story powerful. And this was what Christ’s mission was, to find those that were outside, to find the lost, bring them in, and kind of complete the story and make it more powerful.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: To your point, in a lot of cases in the Bible, a powerful, faithful woman sometimes saves the entire people, saves the entire hebrew nation. Look at this story. Everybody’s coming in to kill everybody, right? But who is it really that ends up kind of, like, holding off the crowd long enough to save everybody that has been, you know, passed out in this situation? And it’s Monis wife? You know, that’s just like, no, no, no. This is all good. This isn’t, you know, this isn’t what you all think that it looks like. It’s like, oh, cool. She. She carries on the tradition of a lot of these powerful women figures, even throughout the Old Testament, that are coming in to save, you know, save the lives of the people that, you know, wouldn’t otherwise be saved in the story.
[01:07:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:22] Speaker B: Anything else you want to take a look at?
[01:07:24] Speaker A: I had kind of a fleeting thought kind of come in and then just kind of dash right back out.
[01:07:29] Speaker B: Love. Fleeting thoughts, dude.
[01:07:32] Speaker A: Got caught staring.
[01:07:34] Speaker B: Sorry. Anything else you want to take a look at before. Before we wrap this up?
[01:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and here’s what it was.
You know, you bring up the point of all these people coming in to experience this miracle firsthand, and even when the king himself is raised and tells the people, now, there’s significance to this. How long was the king down for? Three days and three nights. Does he not become a type of Christ in this. In this story? Right? And what kind of miracle that three days and three nights, when everybody counted him as dead and he is back, raised from the dead, and he sees God and he tells everybody, and yet you have people that still wouldn’t listen, and you run into that. And the Lord respects our agency, but what does it take? I mean, even. Okay, as great as Ammon was, as great as Ammon was at serving, and as great as Ammon was at converting thousands of people to the truth, there are people that still wouldn’t listen to Ammon. There’s people that seeing Lamoni raised from the dead, that seeing this miracle firsthand, still didn’t believe it doesn’t matter. You can’t beat yourself up and say, if only I was like ammon, I could have converted.
It’s. It’s the right place, the right time, the perfect storm. It’s not just about being like Ammon, it’s, there’s a lot of different pieces that need to fall into place. You can’t beat yourself up. We just need to be careful that we’re prepared. So when moments like this happen or when general conference happens and we hear some of the miraculous words and the powerful things that are spoken to us, we hear them and we don’t just lose it.
[01:09:15] Speaker B: Love it.
[01:09:17] Speaker A: That’s it. That’s all they had.
[01:09:19] Speaker B: I know that there’s a lot more to this story. I know that we go and we see the king, they meet him along the way. We’re going to rescue prisoners.
I know that we’re leaving out so many really great things, but this is kind of where we wanted to take the discussion. And, you know, we weren’t going to talk. We weren’t going to have this part of the book of Mormon and we wouldn’t be discussing chopping off arms and preaching to the people. Because at the end of the day, the story still rocks for us adults as well. It’s so good. And there’s, you know, a lot of extra, hopefully, insight and content there that if nothing else, hopefully we inspired you to think a little bit more about this awesome story. I wish I looked like those Freiburg pictures, dude. I need to, I need to figure out. I need to figure out something in my life so that I can look like literally every single dude that has ever been in a Freeburg painting.
[01:10:16] Speaker A: I don’t even think 1% of the population look like. No, but people in the Freeburg pictures.
[01:10:21] Speaker B: Charlton Heston apparently remember that’s, that’s who he modeled. Like every dude after was Charlton Heston.
[01:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah, but Charlton Heston didn’t.
[01:10:30] Speaker B: I mean, Charlton Heston, Charles did not.
[01:10:32] Speaker A: Look like he was big. He.
[01:10:34] Speaker B: Well, and he. No no, no. He didn’t look like those dudes.
[01:10:38] Speaker A: This was like if Charlton Heston had steroids. That’s what Freiberg paintings were.
[01:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah, baby. Yeah, that’s what I wanted.
[01:10:46] Speaker A: Charlton Heston’s almost more like your Clint Eastwood, right? I mean, he’s strong.
[01:10:50] Speaker B: Nah, he was bigger than Clint Eastwood. He was cut too, though.
I mean, we just watched Ben Hur with the kids all like seven and a half hours of that movie or whatever. And there were definitely multiple times where I was like, yeah, that, that was a dude was fit. Anyways, we appreciate you listening to the show.
[01:11:09] Speaker A: Was there anywhere you wanted to go? Nate? I just trying to be respectful of time and appreciate it.
[01:11:13] Speaker B: No, there’s. If we feel like there’s any like, things next week that we need to hit it. We’ll probably hit it next week. We want to also be respectful of your time as well.
Thank you so much for listening sharing the podcast. You can get ahold of us at the email address high deep dive.com where you can send us questions, comments, feedback, insight of your own. We always love hearing it. We always appreciate you listening and letting us know what you think and sharing this with your friends.
That’s all we got for this week. So until next week, see ya.
I really enjoyed your discussion/speculation in the roles of older vs younger brothers with respect to leaders. I think that this is a pattern that often shows up in the scriptures: Nephi & Lamen, Moses & Aaron, Joseph & Hyrum, Joseph & 11 brothers, Jacob & Esau, David & brothers. Hopping on the speculation train, I sometimes have had the thought that while Christ is the Only Begotten, perhaps spirit children were “adopted” prior to him such as Lucifer adding to the dynamics of what we already know of their role in presenting an alternate plan etc.
Great episode as always.