Destruction important for salvation. The scriptures as a starting point to build on. Sacred and secret. Priestcrafts.
Transcript:
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show’s producer, Nate Piper.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: What’s up, Nate?
[00:00:32] Speaker A: It’s good to be back. Good to be recording another episode.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Who came up with the idea of daylight savings time?
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Is it messing you up?
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Not me. I don’t care. But my kids, it’s just a disaster.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: It’s rough on the kids.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Didn’t they pass some law about like, they were going to get rid of this because Arizona has it right? Didn’t you hear about always.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: It’s always a point of discussion, and I hear you because you’ve got a baby and the babies don’t. She’s.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: She’s having the roughest time of.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: It’s the worst. It’s the worst when you got a baby.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: That’s what I’m voting for.
Whoever campaigns against daylight savings time is just so you know who’s going to be getting my vote not to get all political on you.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: It’s good to know.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: You’re never going to believe this book that I got in the mail.
You ready?
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Go for it.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: So my buddy hoon, listener to the show, shout out, thanks for listening to the show. I think when we were in the Isaiah chapters, he kept saying, kind of jokingly, I think, but maybe not jokingly, that you and I needed to do. We needed to go through the Book of Mormon and do a version of the Book of Mormon for kids. Not kids, but, like, young adults for Gen Z. And of course, I told him that that’s the worst idea that he had ever had and that there’s no way we would ever entertain anything even like that. And so apparently he found somebody that took Chat GPT and let AI retranslate the entire book of Mormon for Gen Z. And it says it’s written by Broseph Smith. And that pretty much tells you all you need to know about this. But needless to say. Needless to say, we now have another translation. We now have another version of the Book of Mormon written by AI, or I guess, rewritten by AI for Gen Z. AI is actually inspired, man.
Some of these things are the craziest things I’ve ever heard.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: But tonight, maybe if we come to a starting or a stopping place, right? If we’re confused, Jason, you and I, if we’re confused, we can check in with Chat GPT for Gen Z and see what they think about the scripture. See what AI thinks about it.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: I am intrigued. We are going to be covering second Nephi 26 through 30, just off the cuff. I am curious as to how they translate those secret combinations.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we’ll get to it. We’ll get to it.
I should just read you the intro page, but.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Give us a taste.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Oh, man.
We’ll get into it. We’ll get into it. You can’t put me on the spot like that.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: You can’t just float something and not get a sample.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Okay, here’s a sample. Let’s just start with first Nephi. Then I guess, yo yo, it’s Nephi. I was born to dope parents who taught me all their knowledge. I’ve been through some rough times, but the Lord has blessed me with mad knowledge about his mysteries. So I’m making a record of my life. Well, there you go, Mad Matt. So anyways, not to get too distracted early on, but thank goodness for the power of AI to help retranslate this book for apparently the dumbest generation in the entire world, at least according to AI. I don’t think that that’s the case. I’m not saying I think that apparently AI does, though.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Well, thank you, brosef Smith, for thanks.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Hoon, for somehow finding a version of this book and sending it to me. My wife was so confused when she opened the mail and saw it in there, she’s like, did you buy this? I was like, what are you talking.
All right, let’s get into it.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: All right, just real quick from last week, before we dive into our sections this week, I’ve been thinking about this with the rod that comes from the stem of Jesse, the root of Jesse, and how we translated that last week, or at least how we read that last week.
Not going all Gen Z AI on this, but a stem being the trunk of the tree or the root being the base being ancestors, as opposed to children coming from the branches, the future generations. And when we look at common ancestors, for all Israel, we have Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So I talked about this being an alternative branch from the house of Israel. This was going to take us to Joseph, and Joseph Smith coming from Ephraim.
I like reading it that way. But there’s also something interesting about this, I think, in how this is translated is the wrong word. If we go to doctrine covenants, when they’re asking questions about what these verses mean, they say that the stem of Jesse is Christ.
And we looked at this, Christ is a branch from the house of David. He’s a descendant. They call him son of.
So maybe a question that would be asked is, how is it that he is a branch subsequently down the tree, and then also the roots at the beginning of the tree? And I think that’s a fair question.
I like this reading, because when Jesus is in the New Testament and they talk about how they have Abraham, that they descend from, Christ says, before Abraham was I am.
And here’s the thing. There is nothing special about Abraham were it not for the covenant that he made with Christ. And Christ makes that connection by saying that no branch will put forth good fruit unless it’s connected to the true vine. Christ is the true vine, the roots that any tree is grounded through. So yes, you do have common ancestry with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but Abraham becomes special because of the covenant that he made with Christ. When we talk about when he divided those animals in half and waited all day for the Lord to come, and Jehovah comes and walks through those pieces saying that, I will physically come and pay that price. I will be torn for your seed. He’s showing I was chosen before the foundation of the world, before Abraham was I am before the world was created. So I don’t think it’s wrong how we interpret this in saying that it’s another branch, a cousin branch from Judah, looking at Joseph’s line, and that it does come from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But it’s also not wrong to look at how this is interpreted in doctrine. Covenants. When they ask that question, Abraham is who he is because of the covenant with Christ. And Christ is both the root and the branch. He’s a descendant from David and when he’s going to be born. But he’s also Jehovah, who created that covenant with Abraham a long time ago. And through him all righteousness and covenants are of effect. So I just wanted to add that perspective. Cool.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Let’s keep going.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: All right, let’s take a look at the actual readings for this week. Second, Nephi, chapter 26. And just to give us some context, we’re coming out of the Isaiah chapters, but Nephi is adding his take to the Isaiah chapters.
I guess maybe one of the first things that I really want to put a fine point on when we look at the clarity with which Nephi is able to describe the coming of Christ and how he was going to be born, how he was going to be rejected by the Jews. Later, he sees the Gentiles coming across the sea to the Book of Mormon lands, how they were going to destroy his seed and his brother’s seed. He sees the restoration of the gospel. He sees the book.
And he’s really putting a lot of detail about all of these prophecies, of what’s going to happen. That hindsight being 2020, we can look back and see the fulfillment of a lot of these prophecies. Nephi is seeing these prophecies because of how he is interpreting Isaiah. And so as we’re reading chapter 25, which was last week, 262-72-8293 you’ll see him quoting wholesale from Isaiah 29, from different parts of Isaiah, just pulling it in to explain things that Isaiah was not explicitly talking about in Isaiah.
So Nephi is using Isaiah as almost to go back to the example where we began this, the root, the source. For him to be able to flesh out these ideas and provide even more context.
And I think that becomes an important part of the scriptures.
We had our come follow me tonight. My son was teaching the lesson. He did a really good job. And he was talking about the book that was going to come forth among the people to help convince them of the truth. And as we read this, it says it was a sealed book. And when he takes it to the scholars, the scholar says, I’m not going to be able to read a sealed book. And of course, looking back at this, at hindsight, the gold plates had two thirds of it sealed. Joseph Smith was commanded to only translate the unsealed portion. Right. And so we see the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
And as we’re getting to this book of Mormon and what this means, 116 pages of what was translated is lost. So we’re talking about maybe 600 pages of records. And that only is a third of what was translated. What about the other two thirds that were sealed?
If 600 pages represents a third, we’re talking about 1200 missing pages of scripture. Where are they? What are they?
And it talks about those. At some point, everything’s going to be made known, and all this is going to be taught. But something that’s constantly a theme in the Book of Mormon is that there’s more than what we have, or there’s something that’s missing or there’s something that’s not there. And the Lord is reserving it to see how we accept and how we receive what he has given us. Today, we saw that in the first chapter of Nephi. When it doesn’t get into any details about what his father saw, only that he saw and heard much. It doesn’t tell us about the coming of the messiah and the redemption of the world. Other than just saying that one line, he doesn’t describe any of those visions that he sees. And we saw the key of this later on when Moroni says, I was about to write them all, but the Lord forbade it, saying, I will test the faith of this people. And so when we’re getting into this, I guess the point I want to make Nephi, when he talks about the record coming to the Gentiles and their reaction, their reaction is a Bible. A Bible we have, a Bible. We need no more.
So when you are faced with, let me give you a small portion and let me show you that there is a significant amount that I’m holding back just to see what you do with this, what’s our reaction and how do we receive it and what do we do with this and where I want to tie this with Nephi as he’s reading Isaiah, I don’t see with the same clarity that Nephi saw the words of Isaiah.
I don’t see with the same clarity the Gentiles coming over to America and destroying his seed, his offspring. I don’t see this sealed book and the Book of Mormon being translated with the same clarity that Nephi does. And I think a lot of you, I’m going back to your friend that sent you that book of Mormon. When they read Isaiah, maybe they don’t even see what I see, let alone what Nephi saw or what Jacob saw. When Jacob reads Isaiah and he applies that to the resurrection of the dead in ways that maybe we didn’t see Isaiah as referring to that.
I think what I’m trying to get at is the Lord gives us scripture that may or may not make sense or may have something hidden from it or some context or something that’s just not quite supplied with it to see how we react and what we’re going to do with it. And when we start to engage and study and read and show interest in it, then the Lord is going to take that. And as we try to apply that to what we’re doing today in our context and what we see and what we understand, those words are going to come alive for us, and we’re going to start to see a greater portion, maybe something that was sealed up that other people are missing. And it’s going to start filling in context and filling into where we start to see those scriptures with a lot more clarity. And I think there’s steps in this, right?
I don’t know that we have the unsealed portion of the scriptures, but personally, as I’ve read through Isaiah, I’ve read through the Book of Mormon, I’ve made a lot of notes, I’ve learned a lot of things, and I’ve started to apply that and see it in different ways in my life, specifically for what I’m doing, for what my kids are doing, for what our family’s doing. That to me, all of those things that I learn after the fact from the scriptures become almost this sealed portion that other people don’t have access to. It’s not applicable to them or it’s not what they’re seeing. It’s something more. It’s something.
So what I see from Jacob and now what I see from Nephi is that when we act on the little that we have, the Lord gives us and blesses us even more that he’s holding back. Does that make any sense? Is that just kind of a long.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: I didn’t I didn’t want to cut you off. I didn’t want to slow you down because I think that was incredibly coherent and well stated. I agree with you completely.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: I think the fear for us when we start reading these verses of a bible, a bible. We have a bible. We need no more bible. I think we pat ourselves on the back because we have a book of Mormon. But how easy is it for us to fall in that same trap if we replace the words Bible with Book of Mormon? A book of Mormon. A book of Mormon. I have a book of Mormon. I need no more book of Mormon.
How are we any different from them? Right? I think the scriptures need to come alive for us. They need to be a beginning point, a starting point to revelation, to inspiration, to more scripture, at least for us personally.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: So like, Chat GPT AI version for Gen Z is what you’re saying.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Oh my goodness.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: So basically you’re saying instead of rejecting this book, you’re saying we should lean all the way into it. All right, I’m glad that that hey, just so you know, that’s what Jason said. That’s the headline. That should be the promo for the.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Week when you finish reading your book.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: And you come in and say a book of Mormon, a book of Mormon, I need no chat. GPT Book of Mormon. I’ll be like, all right, you’ve got.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: To let me know if they use the phrase, the expression snap.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Of course they’re going to use the expression snap in even like the briefest of skimmings. We’ve already seen some expressions, again, jokingly were like, gen Z wouldn’t know these are for Gen Xers. But whatever.
Well, AI is doing its best. Dude, give it a break.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: There is also something else invisible that we can lean on that can provide some context and some extra scripture there.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Wait, are you talking about AI the spirit?
I guess that, too. I suppose so.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: When my son was asking the question, how do we get the sealed portion right?
And that’s not something you just want to shut someone down, like, oh, we don’t get it, or this isn’t how. No, it’s a valid question. It’s a really good question.
And I take a look at that and say, okay, if you’re God, what does it take to show the people the sealed portion?
In my mind, I think you have to have a people interested enough to ask him, like, can we see this? Can we want it?
[00:16:41] Speaker B: I’m with you.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: And if we’re not showing enough interest, if we’re not reading these things, I mean, if we’re not reading what we already have, at what point do we get what we don’t have?
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Throughout the process of the last four years of doing this, it has been made perfectly clear to me that even with the little bit we have, there’s a depth and a connection there that is so far beyond what I think I ever thought that I’m with you. I think that we need to be super stoked and appreciative of all of the amazing nuance and depth and all the things that we can learn already. And I have never once thought to myself, when do I get more?
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Or we can just type into chat. Type it in.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: All right, let’s keep going.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: Hey, has anyone ever asked Chat GPT?
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: To take a guess, to take a stab at what would be possibly in the other two thirds portion and you create a book.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Twelve GPT wouldn’t even know. Chat GPT wouldn’t even know where to start.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: I don’t think it would even be worth reading. But anyway.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: All right, let’s keep going.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: All right, sorry. Chapter 26. Let’s go back here to the beginning for a second when Nephi is describing these generations that are going to be coming and destroying his seed.
In fact, let’s just read some of these verses because there’s going to be another pattern here with Isaiah talking about destruction. Verse four. Wherefore all those who are proud and do wickedly, the day shall come that they shall burn a stubble, they shall kill the prophets.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: That’s an important thing, though, because we’re going to talk about that once again. The proud pride once again makes its way into exactly what it is we’re going to be talking about tonight.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: So good, cat.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: I just don’t want to burn through that, but keep going.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: No, it’s essential for this, right when they become arrogant and the proud, and it talks about this verse six, they shall be visited with thunderings and lightnings and earthquakes and all manner destructions. For the fire, the anger of the Lord, shall be kindred against them. They shall burn his double again as they repeat that this destruction, it shows up a lot in Isaiah. Isaiah talks about before they’re freed from Babylon, that the moon’s going to be turned to blood, the sun’s going to be dark, and there’s going to be earthquakes, there’s going to be rumors of wars, all sorts of terrible things. And so when we hear this language talking about what it’s going to be like in the last days, we’ve got to understand that earth has undergone this process several times. In fact, it almost seems like this process is critical for there to be a liberation or a restoration. That’s one of the big points about Isaiah. Before the Lord says to Zion, arise out of the dust and let me clothe you, let me adorn you, let me put on the beautiful garments. He says, I’m going to strip all of these garments off, and I’m going to make you sit in the dust, and you’re going to lie and be exposed. And all of these, there’s a balance between destruction and restoration. And so a lot of times when he’s talking about this destruction, in the last days, for me, I see in order for the world to accept a gospel, in order for the world to have freedom, where you don’t have dictators and kings and tyrants that are telling people, this is what you believe, or you die, there had to be civil wars, revolutionary wars, world wars. There had to be famines, there had to be earthquakes, there had to be destructions. There had to be some massive humbling that was darkness for a lot of people. And when we start talking about the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood, you got to realize that anciently, anytime a large country came in and dominated and destroyed your kingdom, your area, they burned the city down. And when you’re burning that city down, you’re burning their buildings, you’re burning their books, their records, their clothes, or whatever they have, right? Massive amount of smoke and air pollution that’s going to be clouding out the sun. And any light that filters in from the moon, you’re going to be filtering out your blue spectrum, your green spectrum. What’s going to be left is the red. We see the same thing when we have all the forest fires and all that smoke gets up in the air. What happens to the moon at night? It turns red. So what Isaiah is describing, when he talks about there being an abundance of women and a shortage of men, when he talks about there being a red moon, when he talks about the sky being darkened, he’s describing common themes with war.
When all the men of war are killed and slain and the women are not as heavily impacted and the destruction. You’re talking about a lot of these things. But I think it’s also important that these things are balanced with a restoration. And we try to look at this and how it applies to us, because I think these things do before we get exalted, before we get blessings. Oftentimes when we’re proud, we go through a humbling, we go through the experience. And I think it encapsulates it really well with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, when they partake of the fruit and they think they know better. And that’s what I’m going to call it. God says, this is the plan. And they say, we think we know better. In order to be like God, this is what we have to do. We’ve created an alternate solution in that case. Like you say, Nate, it’s pride. I think I know better. I’m going to try my way instead of your way. And when they do that, it leaves them naked, it leaves them exposed. And then having to stand before the greatest being in the world, underdressed. I mean, that’s a shameful, terrible thing. But it’s followed by an atonement, a clothing, a covering with coats of skin. It’s that process of humiliation versus being crowned.
Humility, pride. It’s a cycle, it’s a pattern. And it’s a common theme throughout Isaiah scriptures.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: If that jives, no, totally does.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: All right. Another thing, in chapter 26, when he starts talking about these gentiles that first show up, and when I say first show up, he’s talking about how they camp against his seed. Verse 15, after my seed and the seed of my brethren shall have dwindled in unbelief, and they shall have been smitten by the gentiles, yea, after the Lord shall have camped against them round about and sieged them. So we’re talking about these gentiles that are coming across the ocean to this new land and destroying the native population here in the land. And this is our history, this is our heritage. And we start talking about our heritage. I have the greatest of respect for our founding fathers and our forefathers, and I think of them coming to escape religious persecution, to create freedom here and a new opportunity.
But I think I have painted these guys maybe overly positive. When I start seeing Nephi describe them, it kind of shakes me up a little bit.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Who are we talking about specifically? Because don’t you dare talk bad about George Washington.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: I can respect that. I’m not going to name any founding fathers in particular, and I have nothing but respect for the founding fathers. But I’m going to talk about that generation of people when I look at them, and I think they can do no evil. Nephi is painting a different picture at verse 20. And the gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes and have stumbled because of the greatness of their stumbling block that they have built up many churches. Nevertheless, they put down the power and the miracles of God and preach unto themselves their own wisdom, their own learning that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. My gouch.
And there are many churches built up that cause envyings and strifes and malice. And there are also secret combinations, even in the times of old, according to the combinations of the devil. For he is the founder of all these things. Yea, the founder of all murder and the works of darkness.
He’s talking about the gentiles in the early days of american history, how I understand it.
And I was looking at this whenever I see secret combinations, for me, it’s very easy to just jump into mafia. For me, it’s easy to jump into gangs. And for me, it’s easy to jump into the shady works of politicians.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to be like, that’s straight government when I hear it, but, yes, continue.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: But it seems like Nephi is applying this to the gentiles that scatter the seed of the people that are here. And that gave me pause.
And so as I started looking at the history of the early people, and again, I don’t mean any disrespect to the founding fathers, because I’m not going to call.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: They weren’t saints.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: They weren’t saints, and I’m not calling any of them out by name. And I’m not saying that there weren’t righteous people. Anytime you describe a group of people, it’s not that you’re saying that they were.
Yeah, man, I got to make sure I say this right.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: Yeah, you do. I’ve got my eye on you, dog.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Let me put it this way.
When the Puritans founded the colony.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we can take shots at the Puritans. Ouch.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Ouch.
And they enact rules if you’re a Quaker. Oh, yeah.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: No, dude, the Puritans were knuckleheads.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: That’s a criminal offense, and we can hang you.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: All right, dude, we’re on the same page with this.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: And if you’re a catholic priest and you step foot in our colony. Yeah, that’s the death penalty.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: I know. See, that’s insanity.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: But, okay, when King George II in England is reaching out to the colonies and saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You guys are way too.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: You guys have gotten a little too far.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: You’re persecuting people on their religion, and that’s not okay. And you’re like, wait, what?
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: That’s what you came from.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: I’m with you.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: And when you start talking about secret combinations. So this one was kind of interesting for me. I worked with a guy who told me his family line goes all the way back to the Salem witch trials. Right?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: And in the Salem witch trials, he’s got, like, his great great great grandfather’s journals, records.
And in this deal, in the journals and the records and the family writings, it talks about if you successfully prosecute somebody for being a witch, you get to inherit their property.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, it’s a pretty blatant conflict of interest.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: And so they were looking at it and saying, in order for our business to grow, in order for us to get gain, who do we need to accuse of being a witch so that we can inherit their property? And they’re successfully trying people not based on anything that they do, but based on how do they get gain.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Dude, you and I are on the same page with the Puritans.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: I’m just saying, early America is not as free as maybe we.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Oh, no, it’s a mess.
This is all pre revolution that you’re talking about.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Yeah, this is what Nephi is describing. See? For me. See?
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Okay, see, you made it sound like you were about ready to start taking shots at the actual founders of this country.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Nothing but respect. But I’m just saying, they weren’t saints.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: We don’t need to get into it. But obviously, there were some things where you look back and you’re like, oof. But you made it sound like that’s who this was about, that that’s who you wanted to bring into this. And by the way, I’m sure there was a bunch of secret combinations and stuff going on with those dudes, too. I mean, they were all Freemasons. Right.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Well, it reminds me. So I’m trying to figure out, Nephi is describing this time period with incredible accuracy, using the words of Isaiah. What from Isaiah is fueling this understanding for Nephi to be able to describe early colonial.
Let’s look at obviously okay, I’ll agree with you on that. Obviously, the spirit not Chat GPT if you look at the native inhabitants as being Israel, as Nephi does, and then the Gentiles as being Gentiles, think back on what Isaiah’s going through. He looks at his Israel as Israel, and then the Gentiles as the Assyrians.
And so what does he say? The Israelites have become too proudful, too exalted. So I’m going to call the Assyrians. The Assyrians are going to come in here and they’re going to humble them, and they’re going to cut them low. And so what does he do? I’m whistling to the nations. They’re coming from afar, they’re crossing over. I think he’s using his story, Isaiah’s story, describing the Assyrians as describing the Europeans as describing the Gentiles, as they come over to humble the Israelites, and they come and do it. And what does he say about the Assyrians?
Shall the axe boast against his master? I sent you, and now you think you’re even greater. And look at the early attitudes of this manifest destiny and what they were going to do and how they were on God’s errand to do whatever. And they used a lot of that as excuse, as rhetoric to justify maybe selfish means totally with you on.
So when that gets out of there and out of hand, what does the Lord have to do? What does he do with Assyria? He’s going to have to humble them. He’s going to have to create a light underneath the fire. And maybe in this case, if you look at early colonial America as a representation of these european nations and then the revolutionary war, he talks about Assyria when they have everything all surrounded and Jerusalem is hopelessly outnumbered. This country that it’s not even a country, it’s a city that should be squashed. Assyria came all the way down to Egypt, conquered every major nation, and yet this little light, this little Jerusalem, he lit a fire underneath Assyria, and Assyria was destroyed within a day. So here you have these powerful nations that have laid their claims and made their stakes, and they’re spreading out and taking claim to all of this. And then all of a sudden, the revolutionary war is like this fire that’s lit underneath the hand of these powerful european nations that within a day, all of a sudden, you’re seeing the crumbling of these massive powers and the rise of this nation that has no reason to exist, no reason to have survived, yet becomes this light that ends up humbling this foreign concept. So what I’m seeing is Nephi is using Isaiah’s words, but he’s using them to understand not just past events, but future events, and describe them with incredible accuracy. And how he’s taking this and what it’s doing is it’s giving him stuff that was never even written in the scriptures. Clarity, understanding, revealing to him even greater truths.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Totally with you. Love it.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Secret combinations.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Secret combinations are not just something that we recognize today.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: I agree. I think that those of us that are familiar kind of grew up with the scriptures. When we hear secret combinations, I think, for me to answer your earlier question, we usually think back to the gaddy and robbers and a lot of the people that are going out and kind of doing little shady deals and things like that, too. And I think, like you, that it is so much more expansive.
We probably see it a lot more in our day to day lives than we would imagine. And I think it’s, in a lot of cases, probably a good warning also for a lot of us just to be careful of even the business things that we’re involved in or the.
I don’t know.
I guess I just don’t think that we should limit secret combinations to necessarily people going out there and killing other people and whatnot.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you open the door when we interpret secret combinations in a very positive way, to look at what dealings am I doing that maybe look innocent enough? But if I do this person a favor, and what favor are they going to do to me? And what’s the purpose of that exchange? Right here’s where I almost want to take this. Because the Lord talks about how he doesn’t work in darkness, in fact, verse 22, when he talks about secret combinations. And there are also secret combinations, even as in the times of old, according to the combinations of the devil. For he is the founder of all those things, yea, the founder of murder and works of darkness. Yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with the flax and cord until he bindeth them with strong cords forever. For behold, my beloved brother, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness. Now, you say that the Lord God does not work in darkness.
How are secret combinations different than, say, temple ordinances?
Because the Lord keeps temple ordinances to some extent to someone might argue in darkness, does he not? If he’s not revealing this to the world, you have to come in and see it. So again, we get into these fine lines, right? What is the difference between sacred ordinances and secret combinations? And are secret combinations therefore, just an imitation or a cheap copy of what the Lord’s already doing with temple ordinances?
[00:34:34] Speaker B: That’s what I would probably start with is it’s not like Jesus didn’t perform certain miracles and then tell the people involved, hey, don’t go talk about not, it’s not like we’re or any religion is the inventor of, hey, we don’t just talk about all of our dealings and our information. Jesus himself on multiple occasions was like, hey, this is for us. Don’t talk about this.
I mean, even a lot of the things that we read with him at the Last Supper and things like that, it’s not like everybody was invited to that whatever. So I think that that’s where I would start from, is that a secret combination is a cheap rip off of sacred ordinances that aren’t. By the way, I would also push back against the idea that everybody’s not invited to go find out what those are because everybody is absolutely invited to go find out what goes on inside the temple. And if anybody out there is listening and would like to find out what’s going on in the temple that doesn’t know, we have two young men that would love to come over to your house, and we can refer them to you by sending us an email at high@weeklydeepdive.com. Two young men or two young women would love to show up to your house to prepare you to go learn about all of those things that are inside the temple.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah, the Lord has never, I mean, he says, come have milk and honey, right, for free. He doesn’t invite anyone to go away, but he invites everyone to come. Sure.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: I’m just saying as much as somebody might say, oh, well, that’s doing works in darkness. I’m like, it’s the exact opposite. Having been in the temple. It’s, first of all, not dark. Second of all, every single person in the entire earth is invited to come and find out what it is. Now, if everybody’s like, well, I want it to be done on my terms, you’re like, well, see, there’s the problem.
That’s the beginning of every problem with all of this argument is always, well, I want it on my terms. And this is the difference between, I guess, the world and the way that God does.
His pattern is, no, if you want this, you’re going to have to do it on my terms. Which, again, by the way, it doesn’t cost money. It doesn’t cost anything other than commitment and time. It’s not something you can buy your way into, but it is something that everybody’s invited to go and be a part of, including, by the way, my eleven year old daughter. Yes, she hasn’t gone through all of the entire endowment and temple ceremony, but even now, the church is putting much more of an emphasis on starting to prepare young people, including the young men and the young women, for going to the temple to understand better what the endowment is even before they go.
It’s hard for me, I feel like, to have a lot of conversations because I feel most of them aren’t usually in good faith with somebody that’s trying to argue about the well, why don’t I know everything that goes on inside your temple? Well, the truth of the matter is, too, is that we do have the Internet, and you probably, if you really wanted to, could probably go find exactly what goes on word for word, too. But if you’re not prepared and you don’t know what it is that you’re going to do, no amount of telling you is going to help you understand what that actually is anyway. And so again, even what we do in the temple is so much more about the preparation and the understanding of what it is you’re doing. And not even exactly word for word what that whole ceremony looks like. Does that make sense? I guess all I’m saying is that this is something that God wants every person on earth to participate in and has provided a way and a path for every person. I guess if you haven’t murdered anybody, I don’t even know what that looks like these days.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Right. And I try to look at it as what are the consequences of somebody being allowed in on that secret? Right. And what are the consequences of somebody being able to come in and participate of those ordinances, to make those covenants? And isn’t the end result that that person is brought closer to God? I mean, God’s inviting everyone to come in. Everyone can. Here are the steps, here’s what you need to do. And by obedience to that, you have bound yourself to God, you have made covenants with him to where you are closer to God. Where if we contrast that with the secret combinations, and what if you’re allowed to participate in the darkness over there? And what’s the purpose or what’s the goal of that? Maybe the end purpose or the goal in being allowed into one of these works of darkness is financial success or financial gain, or maybe you get something out of it. But at the end of the day, aren’t you alienated from God? Instead of drawing closer to him and being bound to him, you’re being separated, pushed further away from him. Even though these two things seem like they’re parallels, they’re opposite paths. And one is bringing you closer to God, where the other is pushing you further, further away from him.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: A huge theme that we talked about over and over when we were talking about the Old Testament, to highlight exactly what you’re saying is the fine line between the difference.
The difference between those two is the fine line of God’s way versus our version of God’s way. And so I think that it feels simple, I guess, and maybe kind of a simple explanation of the difference between the two. But like you said, I think that if you actually think through that a little more, you’ll realize maybe the differences between those two aren’t nearly as close as we think they are. Because, again, God’s way, like you said, leads to. Because you asked the question, well, what is the sacredness of the temple ceremony eventually lead to? And it’s like it’s salvation, right? The greatest thing that we could possibly want, where the secret combinations of the world. And I’m just using that generally, right? But whether that be in politics, in religion, in business, in all kinds of shady behavior, and all of those truly actually lead to sadness and death and destruction. And whether it’s in this life or the next life, it’s like, oh, cool. Maybe those two things, you could argue, look the same, but one is clearly just the cheap knockoff of the other one. But they lead to two very different places.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: You know what’s funny as I was thinking about that, is both of them require the sacrifice of somebody else, do they not?
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: You look at the temple and the ordinances and the covenants, and all of them are made possible by the sacrifice of Christ. He died and gave his life so that we could do this. You look at the secret combinations, what Nephi is warning us about. Are not all of these done to get gain at the sacrifice of somebody else’s benefit? That you’re actually trying to substitute somebody else in the place of Christ, that you can, in a sense, gain salvation and what that means to you? I would be saved if I had 100 more dollars in my pocket, or I’d be saved if I got out of this ticket or I got out of this deal. But what you’re doing is sacrificing something else. You’ve chosen a different God to lay at the altar, almost like Cain and Abel. Right. When this is the sacrifice and the similitude of my son versus, I am going to create a different sacrifice that I think is going to work better, and this is what the Sacrifice is going to be and this is going to suffer, instead of I choose a different savior.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Yes, it’s good insight.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: All right. This is going to actually kind of feed our next little discussion because this gets into some interesting verses and how we interpret this. Verse 29, he commanded that there shall be no priestcrafts. For behold, priestcrafts are men that preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world, but they seek not the welfare of Zion. Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing.
Wherefore the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love, and he talks about it. Wherefore if they should.
Actually, I’m just going to stop there with that, with this priestcraft.
Boy, I don’t know. That gets interesting for me because you start to look at and how this is defined.
Priestcrafts are men that preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: It’s interesting because nowhere did it talk about an exchange of money necessarily right there. That’s kind of the point that I think that the road you want to go down a little bit is because in Priestcraft, when we talk about it in the, is it the New Testament where we did we talk about priestcraft in the New Testament?
[00:44:01] Speaker A: I don’t know that we did, but.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: A lot of it has to do with the exchange of getting the, or at least the idea is you’re getting paid to, I don’t know, teach about Jesus or to preach.
[00:44:15] Speaker A: Yeah, we did run into a little bit, right?
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Yes, but I think that we immediately jump to that and we kind of start and end there.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Well, and this qualifies it a little bit differently. You still have money when it says and that they may get gain now gain.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: But that’s what I mean, man. I’m just saying that’s more than money.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: More broad. It’s more broad. It doesn’t specify what type of gain.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: That’s right.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: And in fact, they even qualify it with and praise of the world. And so some of that praise, or I guess some of that gain can be in the sense of status recognition or setting myself up to be a light to the world.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: All right, let’s go there.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: Let’s get Nate in hosting the show.
[00:45:04] Speaker B: Are we a funny you say this. I had a really good discussion during one of my home teaching visits because I still call it home teaching, just so you know, and I will always.
But during one of my home teaching visits a couple of weeks ago, this exact conversation got brought up because the family that we’re visiting, my friend, is like, where’s the line?
Where’s the line? Because again, we always associate priestcraft with gospel in exchange for money. Because for me, I’m always just like, well, cool isn’t that we pay seminary teachers. And in a lot of cases there’s times where I’m like, I had both really good and really bad experiences with seminary in school.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Probably all of us.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: I’m sure all of us did. But this is why there’s a discussion to be had. And I’m glad we’re talking about it in this light because it paints a much bigger, I think, picture and understanding when you consider that priestcraft at its heart is to get gain or the praise of men. Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t do this show because I think it’s going to increase my status amongst the world because I think it probably is a net neutral, if anything. But I can only imagine that there’s maybe some potential people that I don’t think so, but maybe there’s potential people that would want to work with me but would be like, I don’t want to work with that dude. He does a podcast about Jesus, I guess, maybe, but I don’t see that in my life. But needless to say, me putting myself out there in my line of work doesn’t do me a lot of favors. Right, right. We definitely don’t get any money doing this.
I was going to say, unless you’re skimming or somehow have an account set.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: Up, there’s secret combinations.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: That’s the only way we would be able to be making money is if there was a massively secret even that we don’t know about a combination happening.
But yeah, it’s still nice when we get a comment that says, hey, I appreciate what you guys are doing, but I mean, is that why you do it? No, I don’t think so. When we started this, at least it was you just going, hey, I have a lot of thoughts on a couple of specific verses in the book of Mormon. I would love to get down at some point just so that I could kind of have them and get them out there, even if it’s just for educational purposes. That’s at least where we started with this.
So I don’t know, because the thing is, I also don’t want to necessarily put on blast all of the other people that do come follow me, podcasts that do go out and get paid, I guess, to do it.
In full disclosure, there are times where I do look at some of the people that are doing similar things in podcasts that are definitely out there asking for money for things, and you go like, okay, maybe there’s something there that I just don’t understand.
But at the same time, I don’t know. Who am I to judge? All I know is the answer of your question. It’s like, I don’t know if we necessarily check any of the boxes for Priestcraft, but maybe we do.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I don’t think so.
I think kind of the guide on this is right here at the end of that verse, when they say that they might get gained the praise of the world, but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
And I think that qualifier at the end, but they seek not the welfare of Zion. Boy, I think that’s where it gets.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: So that’s where seminary teachers get off.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: The hook, is what you’re saying, and obscure at the same time. I think it adds clarity and confusion to it. And here’s what I mean.
It’s okay to get praise and gain in the world.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: We love you seminary teachers for the.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Old, they set themselves up a light to the world. Okay, let’s start with that. Let’s start with that. Set themselves up to be a light for the world. What does Christ say to Jerusalem?
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Be a light into the world.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Be a light to the world.
So again, where does this line come in?
[00:49:28] Speaker B: Right, okay. Yes, but this is an important point of what you’re doing, though, is you’re making sure to realize that if you just take a snippet of this at a time and look at it out of context, it’s a completely different picture because this is where you get into problems. I’m going to let you finish. This is where we get into problems, though, when we go, Priestcraft is money for gospel preaching and just keep it as like, no nuance, no big picture, no understanding of what the scriptures actually.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: Right, right. Because look at this definition. Set themselves up for a light to the world. But it’s not just that. That they may get gain and praise of the world, but it’s not just that. Yes, but they seek not the welfare of Zion. Okay.
When you stop seeking the welfare of Zion and start seeking your own welfare, to me, that’s where that definition goes off the rails. And it becomes priestcraft when you lose focus. And the why for why you’re doing it isn’t to bless Zion, to bring about the welfare of Zion, but to bring about the welfare of yourself and go back to what we’ve been talking about. It’s substituting God for you.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: This is a good discussion to be had, too, because I think we can use now this as a really good check for ourselves. I think in more things than just hosting a podcast or teaching seminary, I think that you can now apply this in quite a lot more circumstances that we find ourselves in, both members of the church and outside of our church and things like that. I think that one thing that has come to mind as we’ve been reading this is this is also probably a good chance for us to also maybe be a little less critical of the things that in the past, I think we’ve kind of immediately jumped to the assumption of like, oh, well, that’s clearly priestcraft. Right? It is tough. Sometimes when you see late night we can’t sleep, and on the television is the person yelling, call this number, give me money, and I can guarantee your salvation. You’re like, okay, well, that seems like it checks kind of like all of the bad boxes. But even then, it’s just like, I guess I’m going to be a lot better in the future about maybe not being as quick to be like it’s priestcraft and moving on. And on the flip side of that, maybe just making sure that there’s always kind of like just a check on, even when it’s stuff that we’re not getting paid money for, right? Things like this. I mean, even when we were talking about it, you brought up, and it really kind of made my brain go.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: Is.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: How do we prepare lessons in church? How do we prepare talks in church?
How do we do a lot of the things that are kind of like our common weekly church callings and things like that?
Are we always just trying to do it for the betterment of Zion? Which I, by the way, would suggest, I would assume for the most part we are.
And we can probably look at you and I have been doing church now for 40 years, right, since we were little kids, me a little bit longer than that. I bet you that over those 40 years, we could probably point out some things that we’ve seen that haven’t had the best of intentions involved, even though they kind of used a church setting as the backdrop of that. I mean, you just got done talking about the Puritans. You just got done talking about the Crusades. I mean, a lot of those, again, religion was the backdrop of some pretty heinous things. To me, those would be just as much priestcraft as the dude on tv with the 800 number.
[00:53:26] Speaker A: I’m glad you’ve pulled it there, and I’m glad we’ve pulled money out of the equation on this, because it can go either way on this. And I look at, for example, one that I’ve struggled with is thinking about desert book and all the books that they have to offer. And I think, well, man, they’re writing all these books and profiting on the gospel. When isn’t that something that should be offered for free without price? And how do I balance that in my mind? And then I personally enjoy desert book. I love being able to find books that feed me. In order for that to exist, somebody has to be compensated for their work, or else why would they be writing the books? What are they doing with.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: They wouldn’t be able to.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: They wouldn’t be able to.
Doesn’t the Lord talk about flooding the church, talks about flooding the Internet with positive influence? I love that there are so many come follow me podcasts. I love that there are so much conversations happening on the scriptures together that online, it’s not just a bunch of garbage, that it’s not just a bunch of attacks and trying to derail the church and shake people’s faith. But there’s a lot of positive messages out there. And what’s compensating people for putting these positive messages? It’s fueling it. It’s adding it. It’s creating a very positive environment. You deal with a lot of artists.
[00:54:46] Speaker B: I was going to say I am very lucky that I do a lot of work with and for Deseret book in the music side of things. And by the way, we’re trying to have it be as successful as possible. That’s our goal from day one, is to have it be successful as possible. And what is success, right. Is then what that conversation turns to? Well, yeah, financially. We also want it to be financially successful. So, by the way, that we can reinvest a lot of that time and efforts and success into more success, know, furthering positive things into the world.
Is it in Jacob that it talks about how to be riches isn’t bad at all?
[00:55:28] Speaker A: Seek ye first the kingdom of God, which is the same thing we’re seeing here, right? Yes, but they seek not the kingdom of God.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: That’s right. And I think that that’s the pretty clear, definitive difference between the two. And by the way, too, yes. I also think that it would be a little bit gross or icky if somebody’s like, I’m going to write a book to try to make a gazillion dollars off of my religiousness.
And with that money, who knows what I’m going to am? I guess I’m taking that to make the world a better place? Or am I with a true intention of heart going, hey, I’m actually trying to put positivity in the world? Or going, hey, I know that this could sell a ton of books. So I don’t know. I guess I’m just saying I feel like there’s even depth and nuance there too, that we might not ever even know about and therefore probably should withhold judgment.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: I think this conversation, these scriptures create a lot of uncomfortableness with us and trying to come to grips with what is this and what’s right and what’s not. Particularly in my mind, I’m thinking President Nielsen stands up as the prophet and he talks about think celestial. And then all of a sudden, what do you see? All sorts of products are like think celestial, think celestial.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: That definitely grosses me out, if I’m being totally honest with you.
[00:56:47] Speaker A: Absolutely right. But at the same time, on the flip of that, isn’t it nice that so many people are trying to incorporate the words of their prophets in their everyday living? Isn’t it nice that you try to have reminders of what he’s saying? I look at that, maybe it’s not for me and maybe something like that really bothers me. But if I’m going to sit here and put judgment on something that is trying to help the members of the church put the prophet forefront in their life and how they teach their kids and reminders and say, this is how we follow the prophet?
Maybe it’s not. Maybe they are seeking the kingdom differently than how I am. And when I look at that, it’s like the moat and the beam. I see this as a big issue when really in my own personal life, there might be things that I’m doing to get gain in my own that I’m totally fair putting things aside.
[00:57:31] Speaker B: Yeah, totally fair. I will still say it definitely. Like, I side eye it a little bit, though.
[00:57:37] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:57:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that. That happened. There was an issue at conference and I don’t even remember. There was a talk and there was kind of like a phrase and then by the time conference was over, a website had already been set up for the things, which was, by the way, promptly taken down. Because I think that whoever set it up realized how bad of a look it was, that it was like, I think they were related to the person that was giving the talk even, or something. And it already kind of set up, and you’re just like, again, it’s a hard conversation to have, but it’s worth having, because then you just go like, okay, cool. Then I think that it’s okay for somebody like me to be a little bit suspicious about stuff like that, because you just want to be like, what was the intent here?
[00:58:20] Speaker A: That’s it. That’s the critical thing. What are the intentions? And if somebody is trademarking something like that, because all they can see in their mind is the dollar signs that are going to come from it. And there’s so many million members of the church, and this is how much profit I’m going to get out of this deal, and this is how I’m going to. Then maybe they’ve lost focus somewhere along the way, but they seek not the kingdom of God.
[00:58:43] Speaker B: They can sort that out with Jesus. Yeah, like you said, I think it’s more than anything is when I see that and can identify that in the world, it’s not for me to go, hey, look at how terrible that is. Instead, it’s for me to go, ooh, that’s kind of gross. I wonder if I’m doing anything similarly that I probably should check myself on.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: Well, and maybe to end with one last example, something that really kind of sat wrong with me in the mission. Phil. We had recent converts, and they were amazing at bringing more people to hear discussions, helping us out. I mean, just a powerful family that helped really push the missionary work along.
And there was a bishop of a neighboring ward that apparently had dated the mom and this family years back when they were in high school, and it didn’t work out and he married someone else, and she married someone else, right.
And they’re reconnecting. And this bishop’s telling her, look, you can be my wife in the next life, and if you really want to progress, you need to come to my ward, and the other wards aren’t going to help you, and I’ve got a better light, and I’m going to teach you.
And honestly, he’s putting himself up as a light to the world, but not in the sense of, let me help you, save you, but what can I gain out of this? How do I benefit from this? And you got to come to me and only me. And he’s replacing God with himself. And in this case, this is more priestcraft than anything I think we’ve talked about. Even though there’s no exchange of money, he’s not doing it for financial gain, but he’s not doing it. He says he’s doing it for her salvation. And I think that’s where it gets tricky and that we got to be honest with ourselves and ask ourselves that question, why am I doing it? Is it really for the betterment of Zion? Is it really to try to help things? Or have I convinced myself that it is and I’m being deceived? And sometimes, just like the secret combinations and the sacredness of the temple, from the outside, they might look the same, and it might be very easy for us to get deceived or think that we’re doing it for the right reason when all along we’ve been following a.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Lie, which is why also it’s not ever really worth arguing about with people because it’s usually in bad faith anyways, about, well, why is the temple so secret? It’s like, well, the answer to that question actually has a lot more to do with intent and your heart and where you’re at. You know what I mean? It’s things that are really hard to argue about in the first place, which is why.
And a lot of times those discussions aren’t even worth having because what you just described, the line between a lot of those things is somebody’s intent and their heart, and those are things that usually we just can’t know. So whatever.
[01:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And is it really a secret? If you’re telling the whole world, you’re welcome to be like, we will share this with anyone in the world.
It’s just a sacred nature that takes some preparation to be able.
[01:01:48] Speaker B: The Garden of Eden, though, it’s the fruit, right?
We always assume that God would have never let them eat the fruit because he told them to nod at that thing. And it’s like, no, God’s way was, as far as we can probably understand it, no, I don’t want you to do this right now. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want you to do in the future. I have processes, I have steps, and I have patterns. If you would like to understand what it is that you’re doing, if you would like to be actually involved, if you would like to know these mysteries and these secrets, here is my process. Here is my way of doing it. We always have Satan’s way, which is the shortcut right? No, I want it now. It’s very much the world that we live in. Like, give it to me my way. I want to have this.
And the Internet and endless information has just made this obsession worse. But again, to reiterate, we want everybody to know what goes on inside the temple. We truly do. It would make us thrilled if every person in the world went through the necessary processes and steps to know exactly what happens in.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: It’s funny. It’s funny. God put Cherubim in a flaming sword to keep the way of the tree of life, right? And you mentioned the Garden of Eden. Isn’t there a sense of exclusivity in the Garden of Eden? You can’t get in unless you’re willing to make these covenants. You can’t get in unless you’re willing to. Whatever. And the imitation being the great and spacious building that creates its own sense of exclusivity, you can’t be part of us unless you. I mean, it’s funny. You have paradise, the Garden of Eden and its exclusivity. Not that it’s telling anyone that they go away. It’s inviting all to come in through a certain door, whereas in the other building, it’s an imitation. I don’t know. It all just gets.
[01:03:38] Speaker B: I actually think it gets more clear the more you kind of start to acknowledge that it’s not as, I don’t know, black and white, I guess, in some ways, and that it’s a lot more deep and nuanced. All right, should we keep going?
[01:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
The last little fine point I have on that is just as easy as it is for me to try to look and be critical and say, this is or this isn’t, or this is or this isn’t. Maybe the best thing I can do is look at my own life and my own intentions and say, what am I doing and why am I doing it?
We’ve been harping on this for several weeks now. It feels like, is it God’s will or my will? Am I putting God first, or am I putting myself first?
[01:04:21] Speaker B: All of it comes back.
[01:04:21] Speaker A: It all comes down to pride. That’s it. 100%.
[01:04:24] Speaker B: Which is why I thought we were going to blast missionary farewells.
[01:04:30] Speaker A: You said it. Let’s go there. I don’t know, baby.
[01:04:33] Speaker B: I wanted to go there. I’ve been wanting to go there.
[01:04:36] Speaker A: Well, it’s the same.
[01:04:37] Speaker B: Should we talk about, first of all, what the brethren think about this? And they’ve tried to institute about a thousand times, but we just apparently don’t listen.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: It’s a sad thing. It’s a sad thing.
For years they’ve been asking us how.
[01:04:52] Speaker B: Many times have we heard that letter in church by the same bishops that then the next week go. And then sister so and so, brother so and so is going to Argentina next week. Let’s give him the whole meeting to.
[01:05:03] Speaker A: Follow the prophet unless he tells you to not have a missionary farewell, in which case.
[01:05:09] Speaker B: In which case, we can’t possibly in that tradition.
[01:05:12] Speaker A: All right. But at the same time, you look at this, right?
If somebody’s going on a mission and there’s an opportunity to invite people that don’t typically go to church to come in and participate in the meeting, could it not be used to bring people to Christ? We’re talking about this. And maybe at face value, some things from Desiree book you look at and cringe. And yet is there not an acceptable use case in which inviting people to a mission farewell is the right thing to do? But then on the flip side of.
[01:05:46] Speaker B: That, the brethren will have to disagree with you on this.
[01:05:49] Speaker A: But on the flip side of that, when we take it and make this whole meeting about me rather than Christ, the whole reason we’ve gathered in this building is to.
[01:06:03] Speaker B: Put us. I’m literally going to do a censor beep on that.
[01:06:09] Speaker A: All right.
For sake of argument here, the whole reason we’re gathered in sacrament is to partake of that sacrament.
[01:06:21] Speaker B: That’s right.
[01:06:23] Speaker A: And to remember Christ.
[01:06:24] Speaker B: That’s right.
[01:06:26] Speaker A: And putting him at the center of that meeting when somebody comes in and says, look at me and I am the reason that you’re here and inviting everybody.
[01:06:36] Speaker B: That’s the whole point, is that even if you get a bunch of people there, but you’re still making it about yourself, then did you actually accomplish that goal?
[01:06:45] Speaker A: It’s tricky. It’s tricky. It’s not tricky.
It’s tricky because apparently not to the.
[01:06:51] Speaker B: Brethren who have tried to admonish us on multiple occasions to stop doing missionary.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: High five send offs and not to be blasting out on social media, come to.
[01:07:04] Speaker B: That’s what I mean.
[01:07:05] Speaker A: Here’s an invitation for everybody and your friends. Friends.
[01:07:09] Speaker B: Here’s the question. Oh, man, this is going to make a lot of people mad. Hi@weeklydeepdive.com. Bring it. I don’t care what’s worse, the missionary high five send off speech or the victory lap speech when they get back about how they had the worst companion but they had to go be the one to save them and how the area they got sent to was terrible and everybody was going to go to hell unless they got sent there.
Which is worse, the high five send off speech or the victory lap speech? Send emails at high@weeklydeepdive.com you can tell me which of those two is Jason.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: Don’t.
[01:07:52] Speaker B: Just don’t bring Jason into it. Let me have it. I’m not.
[01:07:57] Speaker A: Has been. This has been something that for me has been, I would say, difficult.
You and I were both high school teachers for a period of time.
[01:08:07] Speaker B: Correct.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: And as teachers, we would often get invitations to go see our students farewells and.
[01:08:13] Speaker B: Correct.
[01:08:13] Speaker A: If you go to one, you go to all and you want to be careful and be like this.
Yeah.
[01:08:21] Speaker B: So I went to none.
And by the way, I would usually take them out to breakfast before they left on multiple occasions. And I’m not saying this for priestcrafty purposes or whatever, but on multiple occasions, some of the kids that I was involved in, them being converts out in the Bay Area, they were going on missions and they didn’t have the means to necessarily be having parents and family dropping off of the MTC. And they came and stayed at my house so that I could be their priesthood chaperone for a few days. And I’m like, to me, that was so much more of like, beautiful, tender moments that I got to share with them than at award meeting, having know do a thing. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me being grumpy.
[01:09:07] Speaker A: No, same thing. For me, it felt more appropriate to have a goodbye where you would take them out to lunch or go talk to them like hey best, or write.
[01:09:21] Speaker B: Them letters and emails, which, by the way, I loved doing that, too, with some of the old high school students that went on missions. It was fun getting emails. All I’m saying is that there’s still ways that I feel like we can celebrate this person going and doing their thing than to commandeer an entire meeting. But me and the brethren might just have to disagree with whoever’s about ready to blast me on the email.
[01:09:40] Speaker A: That’s what makes it so hard for me, is when the church comes out and makes statements and statements and statements. And yet our culture is more important than what the church says. That’s where it gets scary, because isn’t that what happened with ancient Israel when culture became more important than God?
[01:09:59] Speaker B: There you go. We had to go there. We had to go there because I haven’t gotten enough hate mail lately. I haven’t gotten enough pushback lately.
You guys are slacking.
You guys are making me get a little nervous. Either that or you’ve just stopped listening. Coffee to the ship.
[01:10:13] Speaker A: Well, and I don’t want to say this to make anybody feel bad.
[01:10:16] Speaker B: I’m not trying to say it to make anybody feel bad, but I am trying to say that there are things that we do culturally that I feel like. Check more of the boxes of Priestcraft than what we would like to admit.
[01:10:29] Speaker A: And go back to Priestcraft when it talks about that. You’re becoming a light, right? Yes, absolutely.
[01:10:35] Speaker B: But you’re thankful for going out and doing a mission. That’s incredible.
[01:10:39] Speaker A: You’re supposed to be a light. That’s the part that you’re being called to be a light to the world. I don’t see a problem.
[01:10:44] Speaker B: And we’ve all been to really good missionary homecomings and farewells. I’ll say it. We’ve all been to some great ones where you’re like, oh, cool, this dude gets it. This young woman gets it. We’ve been to those, too. I’m not saying we don’t. But even then, I think that that’s maybe where you could lean on the side of like, oh, yeah. To be fair, too, a lot of ways that leaders, bishops especially, have kind of learned how to kind of toe this line is to buy. Remember how when we would go out, they would turn the whole meeting over? We chose the musical numbers. It was only like family of our family speaking. You know what I mean?
[01:11:25] Speaker A: You own the meeting.
[01:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It used to be a way.
It was definitely about you.
[01:11:30] Speaker A: It really was.
[01:11:31] Speaker B: I mean, you would send out invitations. Like you said, the whole thing. This is before the Internet, but it was a whole thing. Now at least we’re kind of going like, hey, you get a talk. Here’s what your talk is about. Whether or not that person ever actually talks, what their talk is supposed to be about. We’re at least putting forth the effort to be like, hey, you are a speaker with other speakers. You don’t get to choose the musical number. We’ve kind of curbed a lot of that. So to be fair, we are doing, I feel like, a much more appropriate job of being like, yeah, we’re going to let this missionary leave. We’re going to invite them to speak this week, and hopefully they actually give a talk on the topic they were given a talk on.
[01:12:12] Speaker A: And I’ll even say, let’s go back to where the focus is. And if this is the welfare of Zion, the kingdom of God, right. If the reason why I am inviting some friends to come here, and I say some friends, not the entire high school. But some friends is because I know that they might be willing to come and listen and maybe something that they say is going to touch their heart and maybe help them because they have become inactive, they’re straying or they’re struggling. Sure, maybe there are acceptable use cases you look at, and I’m not the one that can make that decision and say, this is right, this is wrong, but this goes even deeper being so grumpy.
[01:12:49] Speaker B: Stop being so grumpy.
[01:12:50] Speaker A: This goes even deeper than just missionary farewells and missionary homecomings.
[01:12:54] Speaker B: Oh, please tell me we’re going to talk about open mic Sunday.
[01:12:59] Speaker A: I will.
I wasn’t necessarily going to call.
[01:13:03] Speaker B: Oh, you know I was. See, right, as soon as I said I was going to stop being so grumpy, I just kicked the hornet’s nest again. All right, but when we.
[01:13:10] Speaker A: Sorry, I was going to say when we give a talk in church, but by extension by the same thing, anytime we’re given an opportunity to speak, who does that become about? And are we truly doing it in the name of Jesus Christ? We all say those words.
[01:13:25] Speaker B: That’s a great point.
[01:13:26] Speaker A: Is it truly in the name of Jesus Christ? And it was a great point mentioned today in our ward earlier today when they talked about taking the name of the Lord in vain. And this is a point that you’ve brought up several times, Nate, so many of us, in our minds, we say that taking the name of the Lord in vain is when we hear his name being said audibly.
But when what we do is not in line with what he would do.
[01:13:54] Speaker B: And the covenants we make each week.
[01:13:56] Speaker A: And we claim it in the name of Jesus Christ, is that not taking his name in vain? If what we perform, if we stand up there to try to impress people about how great we are and to try to get gain, but not necessarily to bring people to Christ with the wrong intentions. But I’m looking at that to see what can I get out of this deal then? Are we not taking his name in vain? Are we not doing priestcraft when we go to teach a lesson in Sunday school? And you know what?
The scripture is fantastic. But you know what? I think I have something better that I want to teach and I’ve got some life stories and some experience. That to me is way more important that I connect with these guys and tell them all these things because I’ve got a better gospel for them to hear. Yeah.
[01:14:42] Speaker B: Or worse is that in those meetings we let our opinions, unfortunately take place of doctrine, or we replace our way of doing things with the way that the church has taught us to do things or advised us to do things too. I mean, there’s a lot of things. We don’t need to go down the whole list. I think that the whole point was the intentions of our hearts, man.
That’s the test. But it’s not the easiest thing in the world, I think to.
It’s not the easiest thing in the world now to get to say, well, Priestcraft is blank for blank, like we always have. We just have to be. That’s all. That’s just the bow that I kind of wanted to put on it. Yeah, I didn’t mean to go all the way down all of these rabbit holes.
[01:15:30] Speaker A: You want to go down one little?
[01:15:31] Speaker B: All right, go.
[01:15:32] Speaker A: No, I’m just kidding.
All I was going to say is, you don’t even have to necessarily be a teacher to raise your hand and make a comment in the class and try to make that class about you.
It happens. It happens. And what is our intention? And maybe it’s easy for us to sit there and look and identify all of this and other people, when really we need to be looking at ourselves and ask ourselves, what are our intentions?
[01:15:57] Speaker B: It was the most genius quote ever from that conference.
Who was it that was blasting? Was it President Nelson that was saying, hey, we need to be way nicer. And we all thought, oh, man, we know who this talk is about.
[01:16:11] Speaker A: It was President Nelson. Yep.
[01:16:13] Speaker B: It’s truly one of the most brilliant lines ever said. So anyways, hey, listen, also, before you just send me all of the nasty emails, first of all, they’re never nasty, but I know this time you were thinking about it. I’m sorry. I’ll stop being so grumpy about missionary farewell speeches and homecoming speeches. Don’t be mad at me. It’s just me. I’m just an old grumpy dude.
[01:16:32] Speaker A: It needed to be said.
[01:16:33] Speaker B: Maybe it needed to be said. But just so you know, I’ll lighten up. I’m sure I’m just an old grumpy dude. All right, anything else you want to talk about? Or should we end this with what? Chat GPT for Gen Z thinks about secret combinations.
I am excited to hear second, Nephi 26 22. There’s also secret groups like the devil’s OG clicks, doing dirty work like murder and other messed up stuff. The devil’s got them on a tight leash and they’re his forever. Thank you, Chat GPT for Gen Z, for letting us know, for better explaining to the youth, apparently, what secret combination are and that’s the devil’s OG clicks get a hold of us at hi@weeklydeepdive.com. We love you so much for listening to this show. Thank you.
We do really, actually, and I know I was kind of joking about the end, but we really do appreciate all of the feedback, the questions, the comments. We take it all to heart. We try to respond as promptly to as many of the things as we can. But we also have lives and families and jobs, and those things do also take quite a bit of our time outside of this. So forgive us for sometimes being slow to respond. But we do appreciate and we do read everything you send in. That’s all we got for this week. Until next week.
[01:17:54] Speaker A: See ya.
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