Lehi’s final address to his children part 1. What does it mean to prosper? We are that we might have joy. Opposition in all things.
Transcript:
[00:00:15] Jason: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add add on Education network podcast, where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight, unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:32] Nate: Hello.
How are you, dude?
[00:00:36] Jason: Fantastic.
[00:00:37] Nate: That’s all I want to know, man. That’s all I needed to know, is that you’re fantastic.
[00:00:42] Jason: Yeah, I’m doing really good. This week, we get to talk about second Nephi one and two. This is father Lehi. He has a reputation for being an orator, for having this gift to speak to compel Layman and Lemuel to convince and to influence with his words. And we get his words as he addresses his kids tonight, full of power. It should be a fun discussion, and I’m going to take chapters one and chapter two and really just kind of combine them and maybe not draw such a separation, because it’s all one speech, and they really build into each other and fit in a powerful way. Lehi, like we’ve said so many times, an orator. And as you start noticing some of the words that he uses, trembling, the anxiety of his soul, how he sorrows, it’s grasping, it’s powerful, it’s real. But some of the things that he emphasizes, I find fascinating when he talks to Layman and Lemiel, and he says, look, if you’re righteous, my blessing is for you, even my first blessing. And I thought, what does that mean to be his first blessing?
Is that the firstborn? Is he saying layman still qualifies somehow for the firstborn, even though Nephi seems to be running the show and ruling.
Nephi gets the firstborn. But then he even talks to Jacob, and he calls him, hey, my firstborn in the wilderness. And you’re like, wait a second. You’re a firstborn? And he’s like, almost the road.
[00:02:13] Nate: You’re a firstborn.
[00:02:15] Jason: A firstborn for you.
Yeah, everyone’s a firstborn. But you know what? Isn’t that the message of the gospel?
And there’s something powerful to that. Like, I will give you my blessing if you were righteous to be, yea, even my firstborn blessing isn’t that. We’ve looked at Lehi as God being elevated to the status of God dwelling in the tent, and Nephi almost being elevated to the status of the son of God. I will obey my father. I will do as he says.
Not my will, but his will. And being this image of God tied onto the boat and the storm sea and calming the troubled sea, by the way. Right.
Yet even though Nephi is the firstborn in the sense that he’s ruling, he has this gift, all of them still have that ability, that power. And that’s the message of the gospel. We take the sacrament, and if we do these things, we can become Christ was the firstborn so that we could become the firstborn. So there’s some subtle hinting to that and how he’s Oprah Winfreying around these firstborn blessings. Winfrey ying.
It’s a verb.
[00:03:35] Nate: Oh, my gosh. Oprah Winfrey ying the first porn blessings.
Hopefully I’ve already gone back and one for me. Hopefully I’ve already gone back and thrown in a great Oprah drop there. But all right, let’s keep going.
[00:03:49] Jason: All right. Not to take away from the power of his speech, but yeah, and Lehigh is going to drop here. In fact, this is my old scriptures.
In the beginning, I started writing down every time I saw this prosperity promise because it’s everywhere, but it’s super evident here.
And I mean, I’ve just got columns of this. It happens so often. And the prosperity promises, inasmuch as you shall keep my commandments in the land, you shall prosper in the land.
And I think that’s our good diving off point to start this right. What does it mean to prosper in the land?
And as I looked this up and I tried to find examples of the word prosper in the Old Testament to get an idea or a feel for the Hebrew, I looked at the word that they translated as prosper from the Hebrew, and the Hebrew was to push through to make it.
And I look at layman and Lemuel. Did they not also push through all of the same challenges? Did they not make it? I mean, this is the discussion we were having just a second ago. Yet what’s the difference between Nephi prospering and layman and Lemuel prospering?
Does one prosper and one not? And what does it mean to actually, and is there application for literally, physically prospering in health or financial or social?
Or is this just spiritual blessings? Is this just sometime in the next life, you’re going to receive all of these rewards, this big old mansion, a nice little house, and you’re going to be prospering in the world to come, but here you’re going to be spit on and nobody’s going to care about you, and you sit in the corner and just have to wait until you get your mansion in the next life. What does it mean to prosper in the land? And I think even including in this phrase in the land should give us the expectation that this is not something we have to wait till we die to receive.
[00:06:04] Nate: I think it’s a fantastic point.
I have a personal testimony of this, for whatever it’s worth. I’ve talked about this a lot. I’ve shared this probably on this podcast more times than those of you that have been listening for long periods of time probably would like to think about or remember. But it’s important enough to me that when this topic gets brought up, I bring it up because it’s an anchor point for me in life and in my relationship with God and the spiritual side of the things in my life, which is in this specific case an exit meeting I had at my previous job or really my last job, because I don’t consider what I do to make money a job. I just am lucky enough to get paid to hang out with my friends doing stuff that I really love doing. And that’s truly one of the top blessings I have in my life. But on my previous day job exit, I tell the story a lot. My boss kind of on the way out said, hey, I actually think that you’re serious about quitting this time. I’d quit a few times, but it was usually to go on tour or whatever, and I just felt bad stringing my previous job along when it was like, hey, I don’t know when I’m going to be back. And I don’t know, kind of when I have to leave. But I come and go quite a bit every few weeks, every month or whatever. I kind of have to dip out for a couple of months and then I come back and if you guys will let me, I’d love to come back and still work enough to pay the bills. And so those previous times that I would quit my previous boss, the specific phrase that he gave me is like, you’ll be back like a dog to its vomit. And I was like, which one of us is that? Taking a shot at, if I can be honest with you, because are you the vomit? But anyways, long story short, when I was officially like, hey, I’m doing this.
On my way out, my boss just said just a profound meeting where he just said, live right, and you can expect and demand blessings in return. And it’s the first time I think I had ever really processed obedience that way and that it moved me. And clearly I’m still talking about this. I quit my day job in 2012. So whatever. Twelve years later, almost twelve years later, it still has such a lasting impact. I do want to just add my testimony to the testimonies of the ones that we’re reading now, that I completely believe that this promise is true, that when we do what we’re supposed to do, and again, what my boss told me really was even more simple than that, which is do your best to live right, do your best to be a good person, do your best to keep the commandments, do your best to. It wasn’t even if you live all of these things with exactness and you never screw up and you never, whatever. No, it was do your best.
You then are qualified and can expect and can pray and really express an expectation to receive blessings and have it pay off. Now I will say, I kind of joke. I call it the darkness. The darkness still gets me some nights because some months, I don’t know where the money’s coming in.
Part of being self employed is the adventure, right? Of hoping that the people you’re working with are good people and pay their bills even. Because what I’m willing to trade, the sacrifice that I’ve been willing to make is a lot of unrestful nights stressing out about the future.
And so that is still part of it. But what’s been an incredible thing is to take a few steps back and start looking at, instead of even a year or two years, but really start taking a step back and looking at the last ten years and going, my goodness, I now can fully see how actually profound that promise that my old boss gave to me when I was leaving, he was right. And I am not a perfect person. I’m far from it. And it’s not like one of those, like, oh, I’m not really good. No, for real. There are things that I need to work on that I’m very aware of. And anybody that’s around me for long periods of time will be like, yeah, bro, there’s definitely some things you need to work on. That’s fine. I accept that.
But I’m trying.
And at the end of the day, I do try to do the right thing. The end of the day, those things, that is a part of who I am.
And it is kind of a strangely weird but incredible thing to look at that and then with confidence go, God, I’m doing the best that I can.
Here’s where I need blessings.
Let me have them.
I don’t know. I know what I need to fix and I will be patient with me, you know me, you know my struggles, you know the things I’m working on here is where I’m lacking. And then it’s crazy when you actually read through the scriptures, how many times in the scriptures we’re commanded to do just that ask?
I don’t think that that just means for answers.
I don’t think that ask is just simply limited to a question.
I think that God wants us to ask him for the things that we need because there is a little bit of. Not a little bit, a lot of bit of humility that it takes to do that, to have those conversations.
Even where we may feel I’m speaking now, for me, even when I may feel completely unworthy to ask for certain things, I feel like I’m almost being beaten over the head with this, by the advice I’m getting from bosses, by what the scriptures are telling me, by what inside of me I feel is the right thing to do, which is humble yourself enough to ask, but also confidently ask, like, I’m telling you what I’ll do. I’m going asking, you shall receive, which.
[00:13:20] Jason: Is repeated as much, if not more than the prosperity promise. Both of those are things that are constant themes throughout all of the scriptures asking, you shall receive, and inasmuch as you keep my commandments, you shall prosper. And how do you know what to ask?
I think that comes to Jacob is going to talk about this here in a little bit. When he says, seek ye first the kingdom of God, and then shall riches be added to it. Right. When we seek first the kingdom of God and he provides us with some direction, then we can start asking and knowing what to ask.
Because you wouldn’t know what to ask as far as running your business or how to do this or what’s going to happen if you’re still out there spraying for pests. Those questions aren’t in your mind. Right.
[00:14:14] Nate: Which, it was an amazing job, by the way.
Part of this is, too, is I don’t mean to cut you off, but you brought it up.
I worked for amazing people that are still friends of mine because it just goes to also show why that business I feel like did so well is because I worked for really, really good, good people.
[00:14:37] Jason: And did you want me to take that out?
[00:14:39] Nate: No, I don’t want you to take that out. I worked for really good people.
Any chance I get to publicly say thank you, I don’t want you to take that out. I’m just saying you brought it up. And so I want to highlight. No, I worked for awesome people.
I never want, when I’m explaining this story, to ever feel like you’re taking.
[00:15:04] Jason: Away from what it was, what you were doing, right? I mean, I’m just saying the right kind of questions aren’t.
[00:15:10] Nate: Yes, but you’re also right.
It wasn’t my calling, dude. It wasn’t what I was supposed to be doing. And it actually took a lot of faith to kind of step outside of that and do crazy, unknown, very scary things at the same time, too. At no point along the way did anything happen in any way that it shouldn’t have or wasn’t supposed to. It was all part of the process of getting there. But you’re completely right. You’re completely right that in that environment, in that situation.
But I felt that inside. And by the way, so did the people that I worked for.
It was clearly like, oh, cool. This isn’t your destiny. It never was supposed to be.
That wasn’t a destination for me. And that’s fine, because it was such an incredible place to learn so many amazing things along the way that set me up and prepared me for what it eventually came. So, no, I don’t want you to take that out. I want to use this as an opportunity to once again highlight. Yes, you’re exactly right.
But my goodness, how blessed and lucky I was to get to work for amazing, moral, awesome people in the first place to learn so many of these things in the process.
[00:16:29] Jason: And how much. Let me ask you another question. How much do you think the jaredites would have prospered given the instructions of the Lord, had they not asked how to get air or how to get light in their boat?
[00:16:42] Nate: Yeah. Had they not asked those questions, that journey may have been over a lot.
[00:16:47] Jason: Quicker than it might not have been so prosperous. Yeah.
[00:16:51] Nate: That journey might have ended very quickly into the process.
[00:16:55] Jason: And if Nephi, going back to what we just recently discussed, and the Lord commands him to build a boat after the manner that he’s going to show him, and the Lord lays it out and says, this is the boat I want you to build.
How well does that boat get built? If Nephi is not asking, where do I go to get ore? How do I make these tools? What do I need to do?
So going to what you said earlier, as far as prospering goes, God gives us direction, maybe inspires us and helps us to take the leap. But if that’s all it ever gets to, is just, this is what the Lord wants me to do. Have fun. He’s going to take care of this for me, and I’m out.
You’re going to be at the bottom of the ocean in that boat with no holes.
[00:17:43] Nate: I completely agree with everything you’re pointing out here.
[00:17:46] Jason: The Lord expects us to be anxiously engaged in doing. And by the way, isn’t it funny that so many of these stories involve boats?
[00:17:55] Nate: Oh, man, are we there yet?
[00:17:57] Jason: Do we want to go there?
[00:17:58] Nate: Let’s go there. Do we need to get in the boats first, or do we need to get into opposition and all things first?
Because they’re kind of one and the same?
[00:18:06] Jason: Man, it is.
[00:18:10] Nate: Even.
[00:18:10] Jason: Look at what we were just saying. As far as the example for work, for one person, the important thing is to leave. For one person, the important thing is to stay.
[00:18:19] Nate: We’ve talked about this so much. One of our favorite church songs, right? I’ll go where you want me to go. Dear Lord, it’s a bummer that there’s not a verse in there where I’ll stay where you want me to stay, because that’s also just as important.
[00:18:32] Jason: I think in the first verse, it hints at that it may not be. Well, even in the.
[00:18:39] Nate: I mean, it kind of hints at it, but, dude, I’m just saying that we missed an opportunity to have the third course be like, I’ll stay where you want me to stay.
[00:18:48] Jason: Well, and this came up with Peter and Paul, where one is escorted out of the prison and the other one’s like, I’m not leaving.
[00:18:56] Nate: Even though my shackles, I’m staying, I’m not doing it.
[00:19:02] Jason: And why is it that one stays.
[00:19:04] Nate: And one goes, well, why is it that they were given different commandments?
This comes back to the same thing, which is you have to be able to kind of ask the right question, because we talk about this when we talk about the scriptures, and I think that this is always a profound thing to continue to harp on, which is a lot of people have a problem with the idea that the scriptures are dead words, at least from the perspective of these are the experiences of people and their specific, very unique relationships and circumstances and dealings with God. Now, does that mean that they’re not important to us? No, absolutely not. This whole podcast is based off of these, right? We can see patterns, we can see trends, we can see all those things. But at the end of the day, what is the single most important thing that we can rely on? And that’s our personal revelation, that is our personal relationship with God and how we communicate with him. Do you agree?
[00:20:08] Jason: I do.
[00:20:09] Nate: So when we read the scriptures, even so much of it is a lot of us and other people, we can kind of fall into the trap of we find our pet scripture or we find our pet story and we go, we’re basing our whole spiritual philosophy off of this one thing.
It’s going to be rough when you have to then deal with the fact. Speaking of an opposition of all things, Paul contradicts himself all the time.
Apparently it looks like that way.
The gospel of Paul. I can point you to some circumstances or some situations where some things that Paul are saying feel very contradictory. What Jesus said just a little bit earlier in the gospels, if you only look at things on a small, well, here’s where it said this, this thing this one time. So I’m basing my entire testimony and philosophical and religious opinions off of this one instance, then, yes, we’re all saved by grace. And if we just say the name of Jesus, then we’re all going to heaven.
[00:21:16] Jason: Well, we’ve unplugged ourselves from Christ.
We’ve nailed our salvation to something dead.
[00:21:23] Nate: That’s right.
[00:21:24] Jason: Rather than something.
[00:21:24] Nate: And by the way, one thing we talked about this last week when we talked about building our treehouse, right? And you have the piece of wood. What happens if you put one nail.
[00:21:34] Jason: In it that’ll just swing around?
[00:21:36] Nate: It’s just swinging around. You go to step on that thing, you’re not getting very far up that tree at best.
The idea is that even with the scriptures.
Yes, we are. Nephi just said this, we’re supposed to apply them. When he’s talking about Isaiah. None of us know what Isaiah mean. You might not, very many of us do. But we’re supposed to take the scriptures and relate them to our. Yes, there is so much value. There is so much. All of that. Yes, yes.
And at the end of the day, the single most important thing, and we’ve been told this even just recently, again, over and over by our prophets, is our relationship with the spirit, our personal connection to God and how God is communicating to us. And the scriptures aren’t going to save us.
[00:22:24] Jason: They’re not searching the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life.
[00:22:28] Nate: That’s right. They’re not going to save us.
They can’t.
[00:22:33] Jason: Christ is the only one that died.
[00:22:35] Nate: That’s exactly right. That’s it.
And if in a world ever more filled up with chaos and confusion and dissonance, if we are not in line or in harmony with the spirit, if the spirit cannot resonate literally in our bodies, in my opinion, because that’s how the spirit talks to me, is resonance, is harmony.
It’s going to be tough. The prophet said, the prophet just recently in these conferences, they’re like, it’s going to be impossible. You won’t survive if you don’t have an open line of communication with God.
Do you want to talk about boats? I do.
[00:23:23] Jason: I want to talk a lot about boats because it’s.
[00:23:26] Nate: But, dude, even in the boat, I’m sorry, but even in the boat discussion, can I lead the boat one off? Can I lead this off? Yeah.
Because even in the boats, let’s just talk a little bit about the different boats that are in the scriptures. Right? Should we start at the beginning with the ark? I’m going to let you take that one. I’m going to let you take all of that one because there’s really some great stuff that we should bring up again. But just for the sake of at least getting the discussion open, we’re going to go Jonah.
[00:23:55] Jason: Jonah. Jaredites.
[00:23:57] Nate: Jaredites. Great nephew Nephi.
A couple instances. Galilee. Yes, a couple instances with Jesus, both inside of the boat and outside of the boat.
[00:24:07] Jason: Peter. Yep.
[00:24:08] Nate: Okay, so let’s use this as our example.
If you were to say that the scriptures are going to give us a consistent lesson with each of these stories, then let me ask you this. Where is the safe place to be in the midst of the storm when you’re on the sea? Inside of the boat or outside of the boat?
It changes.
[00:24:30] Jason: Perfect question. Perfect question.
[00:24:32] Nate: It changes.
[00:24:33] Jason: And Noah’s instance, everyone has to get on the boat.
[00:24:35] Nate: That’s right. In Jonah’s instance, he has to get off.
[00:24:39] Jason: But not everyone has to get off. Jonah has to get off.
[00:24:42] Nate: That’s right. The others need to stay Jaredites.
[00:24:45] Jason: In the boat.
[00:24:46] Nate: In the boat. With air and light and a way to clean out the waste.
[00:24:51] Jason: I think they even have containers for fishes, which is for a later discussion. That’s amazing, but I can’t wait to get there.
[00:24:56] Nate: Keep going, Nephi. In the boat.
[00:24:58] Jason: In the boat.
[00:25:00] Nate: Okay. Jesus on the sea of Galilee.
[00:25:03] Jason: In the Galilee, Peter.
[00:25:08] Nate: Yes, Peter. In the boat or outside the boat?
[00:25:11] Jason: Out of the boat.
[00:25:12] Nate: Okay.
Now, if we take a look at these stories just in and of themselves, there’s dissonance there, there’s contradictory ideas. Where’s the safe place to be? Inside the boat or outside the boat?
[00:25:23] Jason: And let’s include one more boat while we’re here.
[00:25:26] Nate: The good ship Zion.
[00:25:28] Jason: Bring them your eyes.
[00:25:29] Nate: Staying in the boat. I knew the good ship Zion as soon as I said stay in the boat was going to bring up. Okay, perfect example.
If you take a look at these stories uniquely by themselves, there’s a contradiction there of where’s the safe place to be, in my opinion. Now this is.
Please add one more.
[00:25:49] Jason: Okay.
Because the Ark of the covenant was a boat.
[00:25:54] Nate: Interesting, right?
[00:25:56] Jason: That’s why they called it an ark.
[00:25:57] Nate: Okay.
[00:25:58] Jason: And that’s God in his boat.
[00:26:00] Nate: Right.
[00:26:00] Jason: This temple, if you think about sacred space, being where God first organized the world, and it was the waters outside that represented chaos and order inside.
And where I’m getting with this, Christ says, stand in the holy place.
When things start going south and the Romans are coming in and they’re going to destroy Jerusalem. Stand in the holy place. The holy place is the name of the room in the temple that has.
[00:26:33] Nate: All of the representation of who?
[00:26:35] Jason: Christ.
[00:26:36] Nate: That’s right. And this is where I’m going to go with.
[00:26:38] Jason: And this is where you’re. So in this instance, how many times do we say the temple is the place to be? Go to the temple. Go to the temple regularly. And I want to take that to what you’re saying with get in the boat.
But when Christ is saying, stand in holy place, in the holy place, he couldn’t have been referring to the temple because the Romans destroyed it to where, as he said, not 1 st was left standing. On the other, if you had come and in fact they laid siege to the city during the jewish feast when everyone was coming to the temple to observe. And if you had gone and gotten in the boat, it would have cost you your life.
[00:27:21] Nate: That’s right.
[00:27:22] Jason: In the boat or out of the boat. Sorry. You keep going.
[00:27:25] Nate: You’re doing a fantastic job of helping set the point that I’m trying to make up. I’m saying there actually is a perfect through thread of where the safe place to be is. In each of these stories, as our brains work, we look at the physical aspect of this and go, well, where’s the safe place to be? Is it inside of the boat or outside the boat? To me, I’m going, that doesn’t matter. If you look at every single one of these stories, and you just said it and you highlighted it, the through thread is the safest place to be. In each of these stories is where Christ is. Is where God is.
When Peter gets out of the boat, where’s he going to Christ. That’s right. Even Jonah, when he gets tossed off the side of the boat, who comes and saves him? The fish. A symbol, a representation of Christ on the sea of Galilee. When the storm’s all crazy and Jesus is asleep in the back and he’s probably exhausted and everybody’s freaking out in the boats that is probably the safe place to be there, mostly because even Jesus going, why are you guys freaking out? You’re in the safe space. You’re with me. You’re in the holy place with me.
Right.
The point is that if a little bit deeper of a look at even these stories, there isn’t contradiction there. There isn’t dissonance in the lesson to be learned. The through line is a flawless example. And I know you want to talk even again, the boat, the ark itself and the covering of it, because, again, this highlights the point that I’m trying to make, which is even when we read again, we’re about ready to get into it. And the opposition and all things, we need to be set apart to become one. It’s all of these things that sometimes we almost see as opposites that end up actually being very not opposite.
[00:29:18] Jason: And even taking this out, like, leave Babylon and come. But who’s Babylon? Babylon is the one who crucified Christ and killed the prophets. Wait, I thought that was. Oh, sometimes the boat becomes the water, or really, it simplifies when you view it as Christ and where Christ is, as you just did. And the beautiful point. Right? The scriptures are one thing. It’s like a nail in the wood, but it’s the spirit, it’s Christ, that relationship that causes those to harmonize and to speak to us and to make sense. And what you’re saying, the ark, in Noah’s case, when you go into the building of the ark, they’re asked to pitch it on the outside and on the inside, and to cover it with this covering.
The wood itself is not waterproof. You have to cover it in pitch tar. That’s going to repel the water, to keep it as a watertight vessel. And when they say cover it with a covering, the hebrew word for cover, kafar kapoor, is atonement. Atone for the book. Cover it. And so now you get Adam and Eve coming out of the garden of Eden, being clothed with the clothes. This covering, this atonement. The boat is a safe place because it is covered in the atonement of Jesus Christ. If you have covered yourself with the atonement of Jesus Christ, it will save you from the storm, the chaos on the outside. But as soon as that vessel is not the right place to be and Christ is somewhere else, you’ve got to go to where that atonement is. Because the church didn’t come and sacrifice his life and die for your sins. The church can’t make that promise with you and the father. The church can’t it’s Christ. And sometimes the church goes astray, and you’ve got to realize it was never Christ that changed. In other words, you were always supposed to be in the boat. But maybe it was us that got in the wrong boat.
[00:31:19] Nate: I love it. Should we keep going? We bring up the boats to bring up this.
I tell you that story to tell you this one.
[00:31:30] Jason: It’s where. Where are we?
We talked about prospering.
[00:31:39] Nate: Okay. So to me, here’s where I want to be, because, again, this is prospering for me. Prospering leads us into our next discussion, where in second Nephi, we’re talking about kind of the two scripture mastery scriptures where we’re going to start from. Because I think they go hand in.
[00:31:56] Jason: Hand and that the men are. That they might.
[00:31:58] Nate: That’s right. Adam fell that men might be, men are, they might have joy, and there must needs be an opposition in all things.
[00:32:04] Jason: Okay, so let’s wrap up. Men are that they might have joy, and then let’s dive into the opposition of all.
[00:32:10] Nate: But I. But they do kind of go hand in hand a little bit with what we’re going to be talking about in the opposition. Okay, can I throw the question out there?
[00:32:18] Jason: Throw it out.
[00:32:20] Nate: Men are that they might have joy. Okay. What’s the opposite of joy?
[00:32:24] Jason: Okay, before we go to Joy, then. Okay, that’s going to be a perfect segue into. All right, let me lead with this then.
[00:32:30] Nate: Okay.
[00:32:33] Jason: In the beginning, God walked in the cool of the day with Adam.
I think that was Joy.
[00:32:42] Nate: Interesting. Okay.
[00:32:44] Jason: I think the presence of God, the happiness, the peace, the fulfillment, the being with him, being in the boat, and get rid of boat, being with Christ standing in the holy place, whether that’s in the temple or because the temple’s gone away, it’s where he’s asking us to be now. It’s gathering where he is, being with him.
[00:33:09] Nate: Is it a mountain? Is it a home? Is it our heart? Yeah, I’m with you.
[00:33:12] Jason: It’s paradise.
[00:33:13] Nate: Paradise. Okay.
[00:33:15] Jason: And that’s the purpose of the temple, is to return us back into that paradise. The ordinances, the covenant path, being able to enter into his presence to be with our family, that fulfillment, that being able to push through, I think that is Joy.
[00:33:35] Nate: Okay, I agree with that.
Let me put my little twist on it, because I think it’s important for our next discussion. For me, Joy is.
It really is the same thing. Here’s how I would describe that, though. For me, joy is peace when the storm is raging around you.
For me, joy is security in where we are with God. So to your point, it is being with God, but it’s also the confidence in knowing that you’re standing in the right place, which I sometimes feel like for me, it shouldn’t be that hard to know. But I will say that maybe some days, maybe you feel off or whatever that is. Right. So for me, I would say joy is exactly what you said. And for me, on a day to day level, it is when the darkness is trying to get me and freak me out about how I’m paying my bills in a couple of months or when it’s relationship issues or when I have some hard conversations I’m going to have to have with somebody I’m working with. It’s the peace and the calm inside to know I should be asking for blessings, I should be asking for help and having the confidence of knowing I’m doing my part to have the spirit to be with me.
[00:35:05] Jason: And maybe even adding to that, having a purpose, right. Having a goal, an objective, something you’re working on. I look at God and the creation and does it not give him a sense of joy, knowing that he’s created a world for all of these spirits to go in and to inherit and to advance and to grow and that love that he has this sense, this purpose? When you talked about calmness in a storm, it even reminds me of the creation, because is it not the spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters and calming the sea in the beginning that kicks off creation?
And yet you have stormy movements.
[00:35:48] Nate: Yeah. The creation is violent, too, though. Extreme violent.
[00:35:52] Jason: You’ve got the dry land from the water being separated, the separation for creation and the fulfillment that comes in knowing that you have a purpose.
And I think this also feeds into the conversation where we’re headed. I had a conversation with. With my daughter and she said, I. I just can’t wait to be a God or to be done with, you know, whatever. When life, when I got my reward and I’m done and. And I just don’t have to do anything anymore, and I’m like, wait, what?
[00:36:28] Nate: By the way, stated perfectly for a teenager. Right?
Well said for a teenager.
[00:36:35] Jason: And I think a lot of people have this idea that heaven is just this rest. I just got to get through that and so much of life. Is that right? We have sprints. I just got to get through this and then I can be.
[00:36:45] Nate: I mean, to be fair, on the 7th day, God rested, too. At least that’s what the scripture says.
[00:36:50] Jason: Is appropriate part of this process.
[00:36:53] Nate: But even then, what does that mean too?
[00:36:55] Jason: But is it an eternal rest?
[00:36:57] Nate: Sure. No, I am with you.
[00:37:01] Jason: If God was going to piece out at the end of the 7th day and be like, okay, I did all my work, the rest is up to you. Good luck.
[00:37:08] Nate: See, but rest is even a tough word too, because what’s the opposite of rest? Wouldn’t it be unrest?
I don’t know. Because the thing is, for me, again, for me, the word peace is kind of the banner word for me when I consider what joy to me is. And that is peace internally, no matter what’s happening to me externally. And you’re right, by the way, having a purpose, that just feels so innate to me that I don’t know how to really comprehend not having a purpose, I guess. And so, especially once you start a family, I just feel like it’s like an instapurpose, right?
It provides itself, it lays itself out for you. What the purpose is to help these young, beautiful souls have a prosperous, also peaceful internally life, whatever that means. Right?
Even rest.
I would hope that the next life would be busy, but also having rest, or I guess not. Maybe just not the opposite. I don’t want unrest in the next life.
I don’t know, maybe this is semantics at this point.
[00:38:29] Jason: Maybe let’s get into what it means to be the opposite of all things, okay? Because I think maybe that will help refine what we’re talking about.
[00:38:36] Nate: I think so too.
[00:38:38] Jason: And so when you say the opposite in all things and do you want me to lead this one off or.
[00:38:45] Nate: Do you want to go ahead and kick this off? I have some thoughts, but kick it off for us, okay?
[00:38:52] Jason: This one actually cost me a lot of work as a kid trying to figure out, okay. And I’m trying to think opposite in all things.
And where does it begin? And was there always an opposition? And how did it start?
Which is kind of dangerous thinking anyways, as a kid, you’re just trying to figure things out.
Anyhow, I looked at this and I’m like, well, we know there’s a God and he’s powerful. What then is the opposite of God?
He disagreed with God and he was tempted, right? If he was tempted to have his own idea. Well, who tempted Satan? Is there a dark God, the opposite of God that’s equal and opposite to. And another power on the other end? And I’m almost looking this as a number line, right? You got number ten and the positives. And then I’m looking at the opposite as negative, ten on the negatives. So you have this light God versus this dark God. And then Christ and Satan are these opposites, and they’re just going on opposite ends of the scale. And we’re fitting here. And it just all balances out because you have to have opposition in all things. And I was really wondering, like, what is this? Who is this? How does this work? And I felt myself going down kind of some weird paths and thinking about this, and then it hit me.
The opposite of God is not an equal and opposite powerful, godlike being on the dark side of the spectrum.
It’s not God. It’s to not even exist. The opposite of light isn’t some dark beam that you can flash in that chases the light away. It’s the absence of light. And so the opposite of creation is not some negative matter world that exists somewhere else. On the opposite end of the scale, it’s chaos. It’s creation. You’ve got order and you’ve got chaos. You’ve got existing, and you’ve got death, life, death. And so these opposites are not equally opposite. On the opposite end of the scale, it’s almost more of like an off on switch, is how I started to see it and understand it a little bit differently. I don’t know. Does that feed in where you want to go with this?
[00:41:09] Nate: Yeah, it totally does. Because I think that in a lot of cases, we are also fed not, I think we’re fed the idea of opposition. That also isn’t right.
That can be dangerous.
For example.
For example, let’s start with the good.
[00:41:35] Jason: Okay?
[00:41:41] Nate: And you name some. But what are the good?
[00:41:43] Jason: Evil.
[00:41:44] Nate: Yes. And what are the ones that God kind of gives us to work from? Agency or bondage?
[00:41:50] Jason: Yes.
[00:41:50] Nate: Liberty.
[00:41:51] Jason: Captivity.
[00:41:52] Nate: Okay. So this is a theme that we see all throughout the scriptures.
And this is an interesting thing, too, because, like, your point just made, they’re not necessarily equally powerful things on just, like, the opposite sides of the spectrum. Because, by the way, in the case of our agency, it’s us that give away our agency.
[00:42:17] Jason: We have choice, or we don’t have choice.
[00:42:20] Nate: But who is it ultimately that puts our spirits in a compromising situation? Is this us? Right? Is it’s not an equal power that comes and snares us away?
Yeah, like, temptation is there, but Christ, I mean, Christ was tempted, right?
I get that. There is a necessity to have agency. There has to be the opportunity to choose the wrong thing as well. But the point you just made, I believe that freedom, the power of freedom so far outweighs even the temptation or the power of captivity. To literally the point which is look at all of the commandments that were given, is there’s almost with every single one, a direct parallel to agency and captivity.
Think of the things that we think of the. Think of just the obvious kind of surface level commandments.
Don’t kill. Why? Because you’re going to end up in jail. Okay, fine, whatever.
Look at the word of wisdom.
This is all about how we started this whole podcast, is the way that we view these things, our attitude in which we look at these things that we’ve been told to do. But look at this from a fundamental agency versus captivity.
I don’t think that the word of wisdom starts and stops with the things that are listed out in doctrine of covenants, by the way. I think that there’s an overriding theme in there that the higher law is don’t put anything into your body that is going to eventually end up controlling your decisions.
Don’t become addicted to something that is going to take away your agency.
You look at the word of wisdom, you look at the other addictions. Alcohol, drugs, pornography. These things, all of these things are things that we voluntarily do surrender our agency for.
Look at tithing, look at fast offerings, look at fasting.
You can almost look at a direct parallel to each of these things. All of them teach us discipline in keeping our agency.
What is the opposite of, and we talked about this for a second, what’s the opposite of joy? If men are that they might have joy. For me, it’s unrest. It’s what we talked about earlier. It’s dissonance.
The opposite of joy for me is with the spirit. With us, we can have peace and calm in the midst of the storm. For me, the opposite of joy is that chaos inside of me is that dissonance inside of me is the not having this not being in harmony with the spirit and therefore purpose. And that’s right. And therefore, even in a calm sea, not knowing which direction your boat’s even headed, that’s terrifying. For me, I think that we look at the opportunities that God gives us to use our agency to choose between point A and point B. And again, from a fundamental level, I understand the principle of there must needs be an opposition, all things, because if you didn’t have sadness, you couldn’t know joy. I’m like, I get all that, and I agree with all that. And I think that everybody that’s listening to this probably gets that side of it. For me, I’ve started thinking even a little bit more of some of the things that we kind of learn a little bit later on some of the stuff that we learn in the temple, some of the stuff we learn from the scriptures. But I feel like Satan or the adversary is really good at being sneaky about presenting us things that aren’t actually necessary. Opposites.
Like, I think of this idea of, we say men are, that they might have joy. We can refer to that as happiness, right? You and I are generally happy people. Yeah, but it feels like Satan’s twist on that is always pleasure versus pain.
And I look at those two things and I go, wait, those aren’t necessarily like good versus bad, you know what I mean? Those aren’t necessarily direct opposites in the way that harmony and discord are, or captivity and freedom are.
[00:47:13] Jason: What about happiness and sadness?
[00:47:15] Nate: See, and even happiness and sadness, that’s a nuanced one, too, because I think that you can still have joy and still experience sadness. I agree.
Even the idea of chasing happiness as, like, the end destination, I don’t know. Happiness feels more still temporal, where joy, I guess, just feels eternal.
It’s hard to explain exactly what I mean by that, other than happiness, for me, isn’t even the perfect barometer in which I use to choose a decision over another decision, because I feel like I can be happy playing Mario Kart with my kids. You know what mean whether, and even if it’s at the expense of maybe rotting all of our brains out and not being engaged in actual purpose. Right.
I can pretty much be a happy person in a lot of environments. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m doing what I need to be, fulfilling the purpose of my calling life. I don’t know. Do you see what I’m saying?
My point of all this, and again, I’m trying not to ramble too much about this, is I think that we are also, in very sneaky ways, given false oppositions or false opposites.
[00:48:52] Jason: And why do you think we’re given false opposites? Because I think that’s the key at what you’re trying to say. Right? Do you want me to answer that, or do you want to just.
[00:49:00] Nate: I have a thought, but I’ve talked a lot, so please take the mic.
[00:49:05] Jason: Well, if your thought fixes this one, I would just say, in saying the opposite of pleasure is pain, you’re trying to identify one as a positive trait.
[00:49:19] Nate: That’s exactly right.
[00:49:20] Jason: And one as a negative trait. And let’s avoid the negative one in pursuit of the positive one. But look at that dichotomy, particularly pleasure and pain. If that’s my compass.
And I’ve got to avoid all painful things in my life, because that’s the negative end of the spectrum to chase.
[00:49:39] Nate: Pleasure, by the way.
[00:49:39] Jason: Chase pleasure.
There’s a lot of painful things that I need to do that I am missing out on. And there’s a lot of pleasurable things that I’m chasing that I really should be doing without.
[00:49:52] Nate: That are destroying your soul.
[00:49:53] Jason: Yeah, by him changing our view on opposites.
And what does it mean in opposition and all things?
Maybe there is a divine teaching of this in our pursuit of creation, of order, of divinity, as opposed to emptiness and chaos.
Different.
[00:50:25] Nate: And you brought up a good point, too, is should our pursuits in life really be to avoid all pain?
I don’t think so.
Do you want to know what happens when I go to the gym and actually do a lot of really healthy things for my body? It hurts, bro.
[00:50:45] Jason: Yeah.
[00:50:45] Nate: Which is why, by the way, it dissuades a lot of people from going and doing something that is actually incredibly healthy for their body in the long run.
[00:50:54] Jason: Eating your vegetables.
[00:50:55] Nate: Well, I actually love vegetables.
[00:50:57] Jason: I do, too, but I just had to throw it.
[00:50:59] Nate: No, but let me finish. The thought, though, all the way through this is I find immense amounts of joy. When you get done with that really painful workout at the gym or having.
[00:51:12] Jason: That pattern in your life and you.
[00:51:14] Nate: Start seeing the results of the pain pay off into something. It’s awesome when you can be like, hey, I’m actually starting to fit back into the clothes that I want to wear. Or, hey, I feel like I might have just added a few extra years to my life to get to see my young children grow up or whatever that might be. Or, hey, I’ve learned how to take a little bit of control and discipline over my pleasure receptors and gone, you know what? Instead of sleeping in this morning, I’m going to get up and do something hard. And then when you get done, you can look at it from a big picture and go, I am so happy right now. Even as much as I might hurt, and this is my big picture point, is that joy can still be achieved and there and lasting and full time, through pain, through sadness, if it’s actually truly joy and that it’s a lie that we are sometimes being told to go, why would you chase pain? You should be instead chasing pleasure. And you go, that’s a sneaky little twist, because, by the way, and this is where, again, the adversary has had thousands of years to refine his tactics.
But the most common one that I feel and I see around us and we’ve talked about this a lot. Is there’s an easier way, that shortcut. The hard way or the easy way? Like in theory, those are opposites, right? The hard way or the easy way. The irony is that the shortcut usually ends up taking. Usually ends up being harder and taking twice as long, because you have to go back still and do it right. Because truly, there aren’t shortcuts, not of anything with value. There’s not a shortcut to get there. And this is why I do believe that love and fear, on a surface level are pretty good gauges of the decision you’re making. Are you making it out of confidence? Are you making it out of security? Which you can only achieve, is in being a joyful person, in having that spirit with you and having the calmness amidst the storm. If you have that security internally, then you’re making a decision, hopefully with the fullest of confidence that I feel really good about the decision I’m making, either stepping off of the boat or staying into the boat, where if it’s out of fear, it’s usually because there’s dissonance within sight of us. It’s usually because there’s a lack of the spirit giving us an anchor or giving us the confidence in knowing what it is that we’re doing. And I see this play out so many times in the career choices that people around me make or the decisions that people around me make when it comes to should I be doing this particular business move. Well, why would you do that? Well, I’m worried that this might be my only shot, and I’m worried that whatever. But look at all these terrible things that are probably going to come along with it. Yeah, but I’m just worried that this might be my. There are no shortcuts, but this is one of the common lies that we’re told by the adversary all the time. Is the easy way or the hard way. Let’s do. Just do it the easy way.
[00:54:51] Jason: Even that.
[00:54:52] Nate: Just do it the easy way, even.
[00:54:54] Jason: That’S just such a beautiful example of the adversary’s opposite, an opposition in all things. Hard, easy.
And it’s not hard easy, like you say, it’s hard or harder.
[00:55:06] Nate: Right.
[00:55:07] Jason: Or it’s hard, or don’t do it at all, but it’s not easy. No.
[00:55:10] Nate: And that’s the thing, is, and by the way, which one of those should be the right thing or the wrong thing?
Do you see? There’s always kind of the equivalency drawn. I feel like when you look at some of these supposed, by the way, it’s not just the adversary. This is the way that the world looks at a lot of the things, too.
Let me ask you this question, okay?
I guess if this next part of the conversation offends you, you know how to get a hold of us. Hi@weeklydeepdive.com.
[00:55:41] Jason: Oh, dear.
[00:55:43] Nate: First of all, all these missionaries shouldn’t have phones and be calling home every week. Get off my lawn. Okay.
Don’t even worry about emailing me on that one. You’re not going to change my mind. Okay. Second thing, though, is there is unfortunately a growing sentiment, it feels like, around a lot of conversations, which is we need to be very careful of not trying to tell people that they need to be acting better and calling them to repentance and expecting righteousness. And it was like, we just need to be a lot nicer. We need to be a lot nicer. We need to be a lot nicer. My question is, when Noah’s building this boat and everybody’s going up to Noah being like, hey, stop saying that things are going to be so bad. Be nicer. It’s like, no, man, Noah was going, there’s a flood coming, my friends, here’s what you need to do. No amount of being nice is actually helping you. No amount of being nice is saving you from the storm that’s coming.
[00:56:52] Jason: Well, and that’s the misnomer. I mean, that’s a good example, because is it not the love that Nephi has for his brothers that leads him?
[00:57:00] Nate: This is my conversation. This is my exact point.
Is it truly loving?
It’s such a misunderstood and misused and manipulative word. Sadly, in just popular nomenclature, whatever. Love. What is love and is not love in some circumstances, with the fullness of actual caring about somebody saying, you’re running down a road that just leads to misery and sadness.
[00:57:36] Jason: I think that’s why love God has to come first. Because to love God, what does he give you? The perspective.
[00:57:43] Nate: That’s right.
[00:57:44] Jason: Because if I am where God is, whether that be in the boat or out of the boat, I know where I can bring the people. Whether it is in the boat or out of the boat.
[00:57:57] Nate: That’s exactly right.
[00:57:58] Jason: And if I am not where God is, my sense of love for them might be pulling them away from what’s going to be the greatest blessing they could receive.
[00:58:09] Nate: Preach.
And when the prophets and our apostles get up in conference, yes, they might tell us some things that we don’t want to hear.
I would say that I have learned over the years that it’s out of love that they’re doing it. And if a prophet is telling you that the storm’s coming, instead of saying, hey, you need to be a lot nicer to me, maybe we should be a little bit more worried about saying, where’s the boat? Where’s the boat, bro?
[00:58:38] Jason: Where’s the boat?
Why am I not on the boat? Maybe we should be asking ourselves.
[00:58:47] Nate: I have people that come through my doors, thank God, because this is how I pay my bills. Come in through my doors and go, let me play you some songs.
And I have to listen to them, and I love them enough to go, I don’t want to just take your money. You shouldn’t be investing in these. But here’s what you should do. You should go home and write ten more, and you should listen more, and you should co write. I could give them advice, by the way. Some people don’t like to hear that. Some people like to say, why didn’t you just tell me that? I mean, I’m an artist. Why would you tell me that? My art’s not worthy. It’s the whole thing. And you go, well, you came over here and out of love, I’m telling you, I don’t want to just take your money. And you should save that money for when you’re ready to. But guess what’s shocking.
Guess what? 90% of the people, though, that I have to have that conversation with do. Thank you. Thank you for not just taking my money. I really appreciate. I appreciate you being honest enough with me to say that I’m.
[00:59:47] Jason: And they can trust you.
[00:59:48] Nate: And that’s the thing is then when it is time for me to say, these are beautiful and we really need to be doing this, there’s no suspicion there, right? So the hard conversation, quote unquote, still ended up being the easy conversation down the road. Still ended up being the right process.
I want to relate this now back to what we’re talking about. Look, I don’t think it’s my job to go around the world telling everybody the things that they need to fix. Do you want to know why? Because every morning when I look in the mirror, I get to have usually a fairly honest conversation with that other person and go, okay, here’s what we need to work on today. Right. My point is, it is sometimes a bit frustrating when you have God’s mouthpieces, as we believe them to be, get up twice a year and say, the storm’s coming.
Here’s what you need to do to prepare for it. And then to immediately, even within, even within our own congregations, sadly. See a lot of why aren’t they being nicer to me?
I’m like, I don’t know, tell everybody. Can you imagine the people outside of the boat yelling at Noah, why aren’t you being nicer to us?
It’s like at a certain point, it’s like he was, he was being words. His words might have been mean. He was in all love, going, please fix this or get on the boat. Because it’s.
[01:01:28] Jason: Know, when you’re talking about them, saying it from love really reminds me of lehi, and that you can feel the love in his words when he says, hear the words of a trembling parent, right, whose limbs must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave. For once no traveler can return.
And then he talks about verse 16. This hath been the anxiety of my soul from the beginning. I desire that you should remember to observe the statutes and judgments of the Lord.
I don’t know that there’s any greater love than what these prophets of God feel for us when they have these conversations, when they make these invitations, when they desire the welfare of us.
It’s to develop us. It puts energy into it, going back into the opposite of all things, or the opposition in all things, and chaos versus creation. And maybe I can maybe just put my little bow on this and see where you want to run with this.
Being like God requires hard things. It requires change. It requires learning and development, things that might make us cry, things that might make us laugh, things that might make us sad, but all of those things that bring us joy.
And that, to me, is the creative process. It’s creation. When God is separating the water from the water, the light from the darkness, the dry land from the water, and when he tells us to be like him, we have to separate ourselves from the world. When we marry our spouse, we cleave unto her. And that idea of cleaving is a meat cleaver. We’re cleaving. We’re cutting ourselves off. For this reason, should a man leave his father and his mother and cleave unto.
And this idea that division brings, unification by separation, this creative process, as we cut out those impurities, those problems, and refine ourselves, we create ourselves, just as God created the world, and that is creation, which stands in the opposite of not existing or not creating. And Lehi says, arise, shake yourselves from the dust.
Is that not creation? Adam comes from Adama. Mankind came from the dust of the earth. The hebrew dust is Adama, and man is Adam. He created it. From the dust he arises, create yourselves. And then in chapter two, when he says to Jacob, you’ve suffered much because of the rudeness of your brothers. And I thought, rudeness, that’s a word I don’t remember occurring much in the Bible. And so out of my curiosity, I looked up rudeness in the Bible, and it showed up exactly zero times.
Like, what does he mean by rudeness? So I looked it up in the English, because here we have this english translation of the Book of Mormon. Beautiful thing, rudeness. And the etymology and where this word comes from and its history is not cultured, not created, not refined, not developed. It’s the opposite of creation. So again, he’s talking to his kids and saying, you can be base, uncultured, uncreated, or you can arise from the dust and shake yourselves off and start to shape yourselves in the form of your master. And the secret to this is Christ the creator. Like you said, where do we go where Christ is, how do we become his image? Is what we’re shaping ourselves into, this whole creative process that we might find joy.
To me, that’s the embodiment of the opposition of all things that Lehigh is talking about.
[01:05:59] Nate: Anything else you want to talk about in these chapters? We’re way over time, and I feel like you put a beautiful little bow right on top of the whole episode.
[01:06:06] Jason: I’m tapping out.
[01:06:08] Nate: Thank you so much for listening.
We appreciate all of you that not only continue to listen, but share it with your friends and send us feedback. We really do appreciate the suggestions, the thoughts, the ideas, the comments. You can get a hold of us at high@weeklydeepdive.com. Unless you are calling and emailing me about my grumpiness when it comes to missionaries calling home each week, then we don’t want to hear, okay, Jason does want to hear it, but he’ll just make sure not to pass that one along to me because I don’t care.
[01:06:41] Jason: I’ll forward it.
[01:06:42] Nate: He’s not it. Jason, thank you so much for listening. We greatly appreciate it. Until next weekend.
Thank you- love your thinking “outside the box”
To your conversation about “rest,” 38 minutes in, it makes me think of the scripture when the Savior says “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
The opposite of rest might be labor, a heavy burden that needs rest from the Savior’s yoke, since He carries us all with His atonement and saving grace.